thlIngan Hol on Skybox cards

[kreide2000]

Hello,

I've been studying up on sentence construction by sifting through some text from the Klingon Skybox cards.  I've been able to make sense of everything that I've come across except for one sentence:

qorDu' SaHlu'chugh 'ej matlhlu'chugh vaj wa' tlhIngan ghob potlhqu'.

...devotion and loyalty to family is one of the most important Klingon virtues.

I see how using the -lu' suffix could be used to translate "devotion and loyalty to family," but using the chugh ... vaj ... construction completely escapes me.  Is this the standard way of expressing such an idea?

kreide2000



[Edit - This thread continues from Sentence Construction / Translation Questions.]

[ter'eS]

Wow, I don't remember ever seeing this Skybox card!

qorDu' SaHlu'chugh 'ej matlhlu'chugh vaj wa' tlhIngan ghob potlhqu'.

...devotion and loyalty to family is one of the most important Klingon virtues.

The sentence is literally "If someone cares about the family and if someone is loyal to the family, then one very important Klingon virtue".  There appears to be a verb missing in the second part ("obeys", "follows", "honors"?).  Note the indefinite use of -lu' in the first part; a passive reading wouldn't make any sense (?"if a family is loyalled").  As for your original question, the -chugh...vaj (If...then) pair is correctly used,  that is, is correct grammatically and makes sense in Klingon, although it isn't an exact translation for the English.

[kreide2000]

Here it is:

http://klingonska.org/canon/1995.html

It even has pictures

It seemed to me that a verb was missing at first, but if you insert a hypothetical verb into the sentence, the construction still seems really weird.  Not that it's grammatically incorrect, but that he choose to use an if/then statement to translate "A is B" (or more like "B is A").  I guess my real question is: have you seen an if/then state used in such a way anywhere else in the Klingon corpus?

kreide

[ter'eS]

Not that it's grammatically incorrect, but that he choose to use an if/then statement to translate "A is B" (or more like "B is A").  I guess my real question is: have you seen an if/then state used in such a way anywhere else in the Klingon corpus?
 

Don't think of English or Klingon being a word-for-word code of each other.  I can't say offhand if I've seen this exact situation elsewhere, but you will certainly find many examples where the English and Klingon texts may be spiritual relatives, but don't use the same grammar to express the same basic idea.  My advice is to learn Klingon on its own terms, and when you start composing your own sentences, start with the idea you want to express and turn it into Klingon directly, using its resources, and don't start from the English version.

I once watched a Japanese movie where a woman said to her lover "Dame, anata".  Literally, this means "Bad idea, you", but the subtitle rendered it as "Not tonight, love".  Which was closer in spirit to what she meant?  I think of that whenever I start to get too literal in my translating.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

More skybox cards are to be found here:

http://qurgh.wizage.net/cards/cards.html

On card 21 on food there is a typo:
'Iwachab instead of  'Iwchab for bloodpie so I guess it we can safely assume that also the canonical Skybox cards are not without errors.

Most translations of the Klingon texts on the Skybox cards are not very literal anyway, the sentences in Klingon are shorter: Card S20:
qorDu'Daj tuq 'oS Haquje'e' tuQbogh wo'rIv
tuQtaHvIS Hem. gaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.
The sash that Worf wears is a symbol of his family's house.
He wears it proudly as a reminder of his heritage.

The first sentence is a literal translation.
A more literal translation of second and third sentence:

While he wears it he is proud. To him it causes to remember his heritage.

The first line contains one e too many: Haquje'e'

Card 27 has at least a space too many between vaS'a'  and 'e'

[QoghtlhIH'u']

Kreide2000,

Your original question was about joining two -DI'  clauses. Look at Skybox card 25:

S25
tlhIngan vaS'a'
Klingon Great Hall

juHqo' vaS'a' tu'lu'. ngoch luchermeH 'ej wo' San luwuqmeH pa' ghom tlhIngan yejquv DevwI'pu'.

On the Homeworld, there is a great hall where the leaders of the Klingon High Council meet to determine policy and decide upon the fate of the Empire. 

Two -meH clauses are joined here:
ngoch luchermeH 'ej wo' San luwuqmeH

to determine policy and decide upon the fate of the Empire

Together with the -chugh example on the family card we may assume that at least two expressions with the verb suffixes type 9
-DI'
-chugh
-meH
can be joined by 'ej

[QoghtlhIH'u']

... and on card S31
S31
Death Howl
Hegh bey

HeghDI' tlhIngan SuvwI' pagh tlhIngan SuvwI' HoHlu'DI' Heghtay lulop latlh tlhInganpu'.  Heghtay luloptaHvIS chaH chaq bey SeQ lujach.
When a Klingon warrior dies or is killed other Klingons may perform a ceremonial howl or yell as part of the Klingon death ritual.
Here two -DI' clauses are joined with pagh
This is also an example where the Klingon text of two sentences is translated by one English sentence.

Also interesting on this card is:
beyHom bey bey'a' jachtaH latlh tlhInganpu'.
others roar in a great crescendo.

[kreide2000]

Yeah, I've almost worked my way through all of the cards.  Seeing how MO translates these sentences has been illuminating to say the least.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

The thing about the Skybox cards is that they contain texts, information. Whereas all other canon (at least that I have read and listened to: TKD, PK, CK, KGT and movietexts) contains explanations about the language, words and short sentences with little or no context (conversational (CK, PK) texts do have context, but in all cases either party only is only speaking short sentences,  or curses or toasts) , the cards are meant to convey information about Klingons, so the sentences are related.
It also shows that Okrand himself did not find a way to compose longer more complex sentences in some cases. Either that or Klingon is supposed to consist of not too lengthy sentences.

S7 qIvorIt pagh'e'   K'Vort Class Pagh
qivo'rIt toQDuj 'oH tlhIngan wo' Duj pagh'e'. ra' qarghan HoD.
The Imperial Klingon Vessel Pagh is a K'vort-class Bird-of-Prey under the command of Captain Kargan.
two sentences:
The Imperial Klingon Vessel Pagh is a K'vort-class Bird-of-Prey.
Captain Kargan commands.

The "under the command of" connection is left out in Klingon.

S27
Qo'noS
Klingon Homeworld

yoq yIn yuQ 'oH Qo'noS'e'. yInSIp voQSIp je ngaS muDDaj.
Qo'noS is a class-M planet with an oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere.

the "with" connection is lost:

Qo'noS is a humanoid life planet.
It's atmosphere contains oxygen and nitrogen.

[kreide2000]

Exactly.  It seems like one of his first strategies in translating was to eliminate the prepositions.

S26

lurSa' be'etor je
Lursa and B'Etor

DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH DuraS be'nI'pu' lurSa' be'etor je.
The sisters of the House of Duras, Lursa and B'Etor are constantly seeking a higher standing for the House of Duras within the Klingon High Council.

Lursa and B'Etor, the Duras sisters, are always trying to improve the Duras House Klingon High Council standing.

That's three in a row.

kreide

[QoghtlhIH'u']

That's three in a row.

Right: for and within are eliminated by stringing five nouns:
DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh

S31
Hegh bey
Death Howl
yay 'oS bey. 'IQ pagh. Heghpu'bogh latlhpu' ghuHmoH bey. ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI' maq.
This yell is victorious in nature, rather than mournful and also serves to warn the other dead that a Klingon warrior is coming.
The yell represents victory. No one is sad. The yell warns others that died.  A proclaimed (?) Klingon warrior approaches.
rather than, also, that: these are eliminated effectively by cutting the English sentence in four pieces. Or rather that this is how tlhIngan Hol works: if possible use short sentences.

The key word here is preposition. It's not just OVS and pronominal prefixes but also the lack of prepositions (apart from -vaD, -Daq and -vo' (am I missing a few others?)) that makes Klingon grammatically so different from English (or Dutch or German or Italian ( with the exception of rutlh ruota) ). And yet it is possible to formulate your thoughts in a meaningful way, which is the beauty of this language.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

-vIS can also be joined be 'ej
Skybox Card  SP1 Qo'noS wo' Empire of Kronos
.......
Qo'noSvo' loghDaq lengtaHvIS tlhInganpu'  'ej qo'mey Sar charghtaHvIS chaH Dat tlhIngan may'Duj luleghDI' neH  qIb nganpu' buQpu' may'Duj 'ej ghIjpu' 'oH.  nIteb ghIjpu' je Deghvam.
During the aggressive expansion of the Klingon people from their homeworld of Kronos into space, this symbol grew to become as feared throughout the galaxy as the menacing profiles of their battlecruises.

Qo'noSvo' loghDaq lengtaHvIS tlhInganpu'     While the Klingons are travelling from Kronos to space
'ej     and
qo'mey Sar charghtaHvIS chaH      while they conquer various worlds
Dat tlhIngan may'Duj luleghDI' neH  qIb nganpu'  when galactic people merely see a Klingon battleship everywhere
buQpu' may'Duj   the battleship threatened
'ej     and
ghIjpu' 'oH.  it scared.
nIteb ghIjpu' je Deghvam. The symbol alone scared also.