Worf

[Tereth_of_the_House_of_Kreg]

Since Worf, son of Mogh joined the House of Martok, wouldn't his honor of been restored? It was not he who was dishonored, but the House of Mogh. Kurn was dishonored as well, it serves only to prove my point. Your thoughts?

[qoSagh]

When House Mogh was dishonored that dishonor was passed to future generations. Worf & Kurn were the next generation of that house and thus shared in thier dishonor. Kurn was of course raised in another house and did not know his brother had survived. Worf was raised by humans and we see what a disaster that was.

That dishonor however was erased, when the truth about Duras was uncovered and honor was restored when Worf & Kurn sided with Gowron in the civil war. Gowron gave the House of Mogh back it's honor. This was well before Martok was even in the picture.

When Gowron broke off the Khitomer accords due to the federations cowardice, I believe he not only stripped House Mogh of honorable status, he disbanded the entire house because Worf had sided witht he humans. This made all members of the house now nameless. This is why Kurn showed up looking for ritual suicide.

So the dishonor that Worf held at that point was his own and not his fathers. When Worf killed Gowron and handed the throne to Martok Martok quickly restored Worfs often fleeting honor. Worf knowing a good thing when he sees it, quickly buddied up to the new chancelor, who later adopted him into House Martok.

So the short answer is that technically and I suppose legally Worf is currently considered to have honor. How rightful that status is, depends on how you view Worf and his many adventures. Turnoing your back on and later killing the leader who you pledged to support and who restored your family name doesn't seem all that honorable in my book. Winnign the throne and then denying it, only to hand it to an old weak general, who refused to fight for it himself and who probabl;y could never have even got a seat on the council in his own right also seems a bit un-klingon if not dishonorable itself.

Knowing what we do of Worf's history (and presumably the related Klingon legal concepts) will he stay honorable? I doubt it. He will either do something stupid again or the throne will change and he will fall out of honor, once more. Such is the sad comedy that Paraborg consideres our Empire.

[KAllen]

Martok asked Worf to join the House of Martok long before Worf killed Gowron.  Thats why Jadzia had to do all the "dog & pony show" for Sirella to join the House when she wed Worf.  Alexander was in the House of Martok prior to the wedding and the Gowron slaying.

I also don't see Martok as either old or weak either.  I see him playing the "perfect soldier" role of "ours is not to reason why, ours is to do and die".  He would have never risen to the rank he had if he had been weak. Espescially since he was considered a "low person with no noble blood" in Kor's eyes.

As for "turning your back on the leader you've sworn to serve" is kinda a wrong observation.  If the leader is making stupid or irrational decisions, shows cowardice,  or does something w/out Honor, then it is Klingon Right to challenge that leader.  Which as you know leads to the fight.  Worf won...Gowron lost.  Gowron won a challenge during the Civil War, if he had lost then, Klingon redshirt would be leader.  Riker had to beat the peewackydoo out of Klag (I think) to be first officer aboard the Pagh.   Thats the way Klingons do things.


[Edit -- deleted wordy dird as per Forum regs.]

[qoSagh]

I did have the timing off on the House of Martok aspect. But Alexander brings up a good point. When we get to meet the teenage Alexander on DS9 he is serving poorly aboard Martok's ship. A good deal of the episode is about how he can't do his assigned job. Why would anyone take someone like that into thier house? Worf of course was houseless when Martok took him in.

Let us not forget when Worf went searching for his father, and found that romulan prision camp. He was disgusted that there were survivors. Klingons don't take prisioners and they don't become them. One of our first meetings with Martok was while he was a Prisioner. BY that standard his freedom should only have lasted long enough to fall on his sword.

What I meant by weak however is that he id not earn his throne, he had it handed to him. If the redshirt who challenged Gowron would have won the throne and not that red shirt's superior, then as much as it hurts to say this.....Worf is the rightful Chancelor of the Empire, as he won the challenge, not Martok. Worf showed his weakness by handing over the throne, and Martok showed his by accepting it.

I do not think Gowron was making stupid or irrational decisions, he was simply trying to lead the Empire into a war with our enemies. The federation has only been a friend when they have the chance to feel superior, they run from any war. Gowron was absolutely right as a warrior to forge ahead with war, and not with treaties. That's life in a warrior society. That is the difference between komerex and khesterex.

I also think that Worf challenging Gowron was less about what was right for the Empire than it was about following Federation orders. Althought this wouldn't have made much of a plot device, I wonder if the Worf vs Gowron fight would be seen as a fight between foreigners not fellow citizens? In that case, while Gowron looses the throne would not pass to the outsider, it would be up for grabs among the council, like it was the last time.

[voraq]

Worf of course was houseless when Martok took him in.

Since Alexander is the Son of Worf then he too was houseless untill Martok took him in.

One of our first meetings with Martok was while he was a Prisioner.

I agree with that thought.  To further it (nothing against Martok and his ability to lead the Empire) how would a warrior who allowed himself to be kept as prisoner, even when the Jem' hadar were forcing him to fight, be rationally placed in charge of the entire Klingon Fleet.  Leave it to the Empires favorite Human, Worf, to place the Chancelorship on a willing prisoner (again no offense toward his ability to lead, as General or Chancellor).

I do not think Gowron was making stupid or irrational decisions, he was simply trying to lead the Empire into a war with our enemies.

Gowron was not killed for this decision.  The house of Mogh was stripped because of Worf's decision to go against the Empire on this.  Gowron was killed for acting selfish, greedy, and stupid.
 
He demoted Martok from his position as Commander of the Fleet in the Dominion War, placing himself in that position, because Martok was too good at what he did.  Gowron felt that Martok was gaining more popularity than himself and it drove him crazy.

Still, it is in his right to remove whoever he wants to for what ever reason, even if said reason is to further his own ego.  

It was blatently dishonorable to do that but nothing could be done because he was within his right, and he admitted to no such reasons.  

To make matters worse, Gowron was making stupid battle plans.  He was sending warriors to their deaths because he could not make any sound tactical decisions.  He was worried about his good name and not the outcome of the war for the Empire.  On top of that, he refused to listen to any of his top Generals when they advised him different than he wanted to do, even if their advice was more strategically sound than his.  The way he was commanding, the entire Empire would have been near extinction due to the loss of warriors in combat ordered by an unqualified, egomaniacal, leader.  For this reason he was challenged and killed.  Not for going to war, pulling out of the Accords, or pulling Martok from his position, rather for his self fulfilling command decisions and utter disregard for the warriors under his command.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

As we Have Seen the Klingon Empire Portayed more and More towards the End of DS9 Moving towards an Empire that is Capable of Diplomacy and Long Term Startegic Thinking, in a Galaxy that Is Getting Politically More Complex, It Seems Natural that a Leader Who is Himself Capable of taking a more "Diplomatic" role be in Power...

In This Case Gowron was Sort of the Bridge from the Old Guard (Chancellor K'mpec) to the More Modern (And in Klingon Terms, More Likely to Lead the Empire in New Directions Balancing Glory and Longevity of the Empire) to the New Era of Klingon Policy. Martok I think Represented a Strong Warrior who Could be Respected and Followed, but Who Ultimately Placed the Long Term Good Of the Empire Above his Own Honor. Gowron was not so Good at doing that, in my Less than Humble Opinion.

In this Way I Think that Worf was a Wild Card, he Obviously Had Great Esteem for the Empire, even above his own Honor, but was made a willing Tool of Gowrons'... I Think further that Martok Understood Worf Better than Gowron did and May well have Valued him as a Long Term Political Resource of the Empire, where Gowron was Quite willing to see that resource as being expendable...

It has Been Interesting to Watch the Progression of the Klingons from the Dangerous but ill defined Enemy of the Federation in TOS to the Valued Allies of the Federation by the end of DS9... (Course Who Knew that Anyone would Place Klingons in High Regard from a Fan Perspective, based on what we saw of TOS...<Chuckle>...)

An Example Being the TOS episode The Savage Curtain, Where QeylIS (Kahless, played by Robert Herron), was Represented by Kirks way of thinking as the Ultimate Image of Evil, Presumably without Honor. I think that the Original Writers were probably satified by that Concept, and So were the Fans... It is Only Since TNG that People other than FASA Gamers have really Paid Much Attention to How an Imperial Exspansionist Species like the Klingons Could even have Honor. But it is a Good Question Non-the-Less... And The Answer may be that Klingons Were "Becoming" a bit more Civilized over all by the End of DS9, and that New Views on Honor were being Explored...

I Doubt very Much that this Will be a Popular Response, But Hey... There are my Two Cents...<Grin>...

[El Payaso Malo]

One of our first meetings with Martok was while he was a Prisioner.

I agree with that thought.  To further it (nothing against Martok and his ability to lead the Empire) how would a warrior who allowed himself to be kept as prisoner, even when the Jem' hadar were forcing him to fight, be rationally placed in charge of the entire Klingon Fleet.  Leave it to the Empires favorite Human, Worf, to place the Chancelorship on a willing prisoner (again no offense toward his ability to lead, as General or Chancellor).

Martok was given endless waves of enemies to fight. Wave after wave. I believe the reason Klingons disdain being taken prisoners so much is because combat is freedom. What ethics are espoused about all else within the Empire but martial ones? "If a warrior does not fight, he does not breath." That aphorism suggests that battle is the only true freedom. From that perspective, Martok was a prisoner in name only, as he fought the enemy every Hu'tegh day.