Learn, evolve, or create?

[garycostello65]

I love Star Wars so much and I just joined this forum today... lol, just kidding STAR TREK... I'm a newbie, but not that new.  I'm playing around with learning the Klingon language and the question I have is this:
(1) Does the language exist in a mature form with exact vocabulary, grammatic composition, etc and I am I supposed to learn it as is?
or
(2) As with all languages there are dialects and variations and am I supposed to learn it and roll with my local dialect and let natural evolution and variations come about in my own style?
or
(3) Are there basic building blocks (lego's) which have already been established and am I supposed to learn them and create my own language?
or
(4) Is this whole thing just a fun little social experiment where I can just do whatever the hell I want as long as it's my best shot at making sense of nothing?

Here is another question, if the answers are 1, 2, or 3... how the hell am I supposed to learn it at conventions and what not just by hearing it and reading it?  I mean, I know babies learn languages this way, but there are two distinctions there... for one they don't have the constructs of existing language and logic which limit them (and pride and ego and past, etc)... but they also have parents right there giving them vocabulary, correcting them, and answering questions.  I don't think anyone can learn a language just by listening.  If no answers are given to you, vocabulary & grammar, then you are prone to learn it wrong and the more you repeat it (practice it wrong), the more screwed up you get, reinforcing incorrect meanings is your mind.  Practice doesn't make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect, without vocabulary definitions it's just a joke to me... and a humiliating one.

Anybody out there that's fluent want to give me some data or definitions to memorize so I can get rolling?  Or should I just make felgercarb up and not give a felgercarb while doing my best to pretend like there's any real sense to the whole thing?

To tell you the truth, I think aliens are here on earth and they are studying us so they can advance their Artificial Intelligent machines so they can enslave us all.  Sci-Fi is often the future, so everybody remember to wear your aluminum-foil caps in this forum!

[Berzerker]

I am new to learning the language as well but from what I have seen so far it is pretty set in stone on the pronunciations and idioms of the language. The Klingon Dictionary seems to be the one and only way to speak the language. I think the language itself is to early in its lifetime to accept variations in my opinion. It's hard enough to learn as it is with new words being added every so often and a misspoken word could cost you your life!! To make up words in the presence of a real Klingon would be frowned upon and could even be called dishonorable. There are various aids out there and videos and such that show proper enunciation of sounds and words. If you are serious study them carefully and take them to heart


Berz out.

[ter'eS]

The answer to your question is 1).   Klingon has a definite grammar and a defined vocabulary. The official source for learning Klingon is The Klingon Dictionary.  Other resources that support that one are the books The Klingon Way and Klingon for the Galactic Traveller and the tapes/CDs Power Klingon and Conversational Klingon.

All these were written by Marc Okrand.  For various reasons, many of us who study Klingon have decided that only Okrand can make new vocabulary or grammar or interpret the existing grammar rules (basically, there are too few of us to afford splitting into different dialects).  The Klingon Language Institute has been the champion of this point of view for a long time.  It's not very active anymore, but there is a lot of good information on their site.

There are lots of personal websites out there with Klingon texts or resources, some good, some bad.  I'd be wary of any site that doesn't at least pay lip service to Marc Okrand's role in defining the language.

[Klythe]

    Ah, welcome to the middle of the conversation.   Learning, Evolving and creating new meanings and expression has been discussed in these and other topics on the forums and hopefully will continue to be as you add your opinions, observations and questions to our own.

   However, some background. The Klingon language, as codified in The Klingon Dictionary, Klingon for the Galactic Traveller, any other information at is confirmed to come from the language creator Marc Okrand and the publications of Klingon Language Institute(KLI) are considered to be the official definition of the language.   In addition to the official language definition, canon literature published by Okrand The Klingon Way and the KLI ( Hamlet, Gilgamesh, Much ago about nothing, etc, represents examples of the official language use.

     1) The language is reasonably mature, as mature as a 20 year old constructed language could be, of course not as mature as a language spoken by thousands or millions of speakers for hundreds or thousands of years.  It is mature enough that one fluent speaker was able to speak to raise a child for many years, speaking only Klingon to their child while the mother spoke to the child in English.

    A Klingon is supposed to do as they wish.  If you wish to learn the language, it is there to learn.  I myself have decided that fluency in Klingon would not return enough benefits for the effort.  I am content to study the grammar, the words that do not translate 1 to 1, and other language issues to the end that if I needed to, I could with effort translate and compose Klingon texts with reference materials available.  I find myself without desire for memorizing long lists of vocabulary when looking up words as I need them will suffice.  I just don't talk in Klingon face to face often enough.

    2) You are supposed to do as you please.   Regional dialects and accents are addressed in Klingon for the Galactic Traveller.   If you wish to teach yourself one of those dialects, no one will stop you.   The main dialect presented in the other works is tlhIngan Hol ta', "The Emperor's Klingon Language" and is the standard dialect used in the Empire.

    3) As with other languages, Letters form words and Words form sentences.  You are supposed to do as you wish.  If you wish to be understood by other Klingons, you will have to consider what they would know.  Any expression of language may be misunderstood, though "inventing your own language" guarantees it.

    4)  What the language is about is entertainment.  The reason for the language is of course to provide a level of verisimilitude to fictional aliens.  The goal of the language is to be as alien as possible and yet pronounceable and usable by actors (and fans), while having some fun along the way(there are a number of puns and references in the language). 

   To my knowledge there are no Klingon "Language Police" that have the authority to arrest you or punish language transgressions.   There are language lovers and geeks who  may try to sound as if they are, who will offer their advice as to how you might improve.   Some of them are more helpful and accurate than others.  You did not ask what you are supposed to do, but I would expect you would judge such advice on the source and presentation.  If your adviser appears to be acting as an enforcer of language purity, you might judge their motives to be self-aggrandizement.  In which it would be wise to be skeptical of their advance. 

     One final thing, while you have me telling you what you are supposed to do...  The Posting Guidelines explain that these forums are open to all, even underage Terrans. as such outright swearing is a thing you are supposed to avoid.  Your cursing was sufficiently uncreative to be caught by our filters.   Alternately, you wish to learn about sufficiently creative cursing.

[Kesvirit]

I share garycostello65’s frustrations. Klythe and ter’eS beat me to posting much of what I’d written in an unfinished post, so I will try to keep my reply brief.

garycostello65...   (1) Does the language exist in a mature form with exact vocabulary, grammatic composition, etc and I am I supposed to learn it as is?
or
(2) As with all languages there are dialects and variations and am I supposed to learn it and roll with my local dialect and let natural evolution and variations come about in my own style?

The party line you will get is: 1. Period end. Deviate from it at your peril.  However, I do not think that 1 and 2 have to be mutually exclusive.  If you are setting out to learn the language, I would advise you to stick to the established grammar as best you can. Klythe says: “Regional dialects and accents are addressed in Klingon for the Galactic Traveller.   If you wish to teach yourself one of those dialects, no one will stop you.”  I disagree.  Some of the more advanced students have very adamantly tried to restrict use of the language “as written”. I for one am very disappointed with what little is allowed, and believe that too many Klinfolk restrict their view of Klingon culture to the single narrow perspective presented by Okrand and Paraborg. Warrior language this and that, blah blah blah.  *grumble* g’daya qaryopmey¹...

However, not all Klingons are warriors; indeed, the upper warrior caste is a distinct minority. Farmers and physicists and scupltors will all most likely be speaking thlIngan Hol as a lingua franca in order to communnicate across lines of caste, profession, and distance, and outside influence, but how can there *not* be a plethora of dialects waiting to be fleshed out? I would love to see these developed as much as I would like to see tlhIngan Hol expanded upon to be something a bit more practical and accessable.

The problem is that were you to design a practical dialect, devotees of canon would not understand you, and I doubt many would make any effort to. “If it’s good enough for the Emporer, it’s good enough for me.”

There is a custom (I don’t know if it is wiritten in Hol-y Stone) against combining words to make new ones. I’ve also been taken to task for creating my own idioms. I personally see nothing wrong with either of these.  Both are examples of re-using what you already have to express new concepts. Isn’t that what science fiction is all about? (Not that Trek has qualified since 1967... but I digress.)  Again, though, in doing so you run the risk of not being understood and having your explanations ignored. To those who disagree with me... well, go watch the French castle scene from Hol-y Grail² and picture John Cleese wearing a loaded-down Tilley³ instead of an armored helmet.

ter’eS:...   The answer to your question is 1).   Klingon has a definite grammar and a defined vocabulary. The official source for learning Klingon is The Klingon Dictionary. 

That is a big problem right there.   According to one of Okrand’s former univerity students, TKD was intended as a one-off to promote and capitalize on ST3. It was written as a novelty and not intended to be a legitimate textbook. Note that it took someone with a Ph.D in linguistics (here I’m thinking of Lawrence Schoen) to make sense of it and promote it amongst his peers. Not many who pick it up are going to have enough background in language construction or experience in learning new languages to get far with it on their own. If you can, more power to you. If you can’t, don’t feel discouraged.

ter’eS....   There are lots of personal websites out there with Klingon texts or resources, some good, some bad.  I'd be wary of any site that doesn't at least pay lip service to Marc Okrand's role in defining the language.

We’ve got a running list of worthwhile sites. I’m sure it is far from comprehensive, so if you find others, add them to the thread.

garycostello65...   Here is another question, if the answers are 1, 2, or 3... how the Abaddon am I supposed to learn it at conventions and what not just by hearing it and reading it?

That is an unrealistic goal, and reads as a rhetorical question. The more senses and neural processes you incorporate into learning, the better the subject of your study will take. See this post for details. (No point in posting it twice. That would defeat the goal of keeping this reply brief. Something I appear to have failed anyway. }}:  / )

[ter'eS]

      To my knowledge there are no Klingon "Language Police" that have the authority to arrest you or punish language transgressions.   There are language lovers and geeks who  may try to sound as if they are, who will offer their advice as to how you might improve.   Some of them are more helpful and accurate than others.  You did not ask what you are supposed to do, but I would expect you would judge such advice on the source and presentation.  If your adviser appears to be acting as an enforcer of language purity, you might judge their motives to be self-aggrandizement.  In which it would be wise to be skeptical of their advance. 

OK, I'm inclined to take offense at this paragraph, especially the next-to-last sentence. My basic thought is, if you're going to learn Klingon, why wouldn't you want to be as accurate as possible, and accuracy to me means conforming as closely as possible to the language as Marc Okrand wrote it and as it has been used by others who have had direct contact with him over the years. And if you're the big, tough Klingon warrior you say you are, you should be able to take some criticism.  If you don't want to do that, then you don't really want to learn Klingon, you just want to be able to give meaningless babble a sort of Klingon-esque feel.  I just don't understand the motivation.  It's like saying you're writing limericks or haiku and then ignoring the conventions of meter and rhyme unique to them.

I love the Klingon language and have spent years honing my skills, not because I thought it made me cool or special, but just because I loved it.  It pains me to see people use Klingon sloppily, sometimes from inexperience, but also sometimes from laziness and arrogance. That said, I am done offering grammar advice on this board, precisely because I'm tired of being the Language Police.  I'm not responding any more unless specifically asked.

[Klythe]

     And this is the problem with attempting to be subtle instead of naming your targets by name. ter'eS, to my knowledge no one has ever had any concerns with your motives for helping others learn.  You have done an excellent job of offering alternative forms of expressions in as accurate tlhIngan Hol as possible where lesser word warriors have merely cited obsure rules without further explanation.   You have not insulted or questioned the honor of new students who make the sorts of mistakes  new students make.   You have not acted as an enforcer or punisher, but as a teacher.

    I did misspeak, I  meant to say " acting merely as an enforcer".   I appologize for that mistake as well as being unclear about the target of my comments.  Surely you have worked with others in who will only say "You cannot do that because of ..." while never offering a new direction.   Surely you have met Klingons who merely wish to sound smarter than others but attacking rather than teaching.
 

    If your adviser appears to be acting as an enforcer of language purity, you might judge their motives to be self-aggrandizement.  In which it would be wise to be skeptical of their advance. 

OK, I'm inclined to take offense at this paragraph, especially the next-to-last sentence. My basic thought is, if you're going to learn Klingon, why wouldn't you want to be as accurate as possible, and accuracy to me means conforming as closely as possible to the language as Marc Okrand wrote it and as it has been used by others who have had direct contact with him over the years.

And if you're the big, tough Klingon warrior you say you are, you should be able to take some criticism.

    And you should know when criticism is not being directed at you, so that you don't take offense unnecessarily.   I have made this mistake myself.  It is an easy mistake to make when you invest much effort for people who do not seem to appreciate it.  I cannot thank you enough for the work you have contributed to these forums, the people you have helped. and the questions you have answered.  I do realise and appreciate how much effort this requires.   You have given freely with no reward offered or expected and we have no right to demand it of you.  What is freely offered can be freely withheld.

    But there was no insult directed at you or anyone else who treats their fellows with honor.


[Edit -- Cleaned up BBCode]

[Kesvirit]

ter’eS, I ask that you not take offense over another’s ill-thought out words and listen to the story behind them. This was before your time; the posts involved did not survive the Great Crash of Aug. 2003, and the guilty parties did not find their way back when we finally came back online.

Early in the life of the Forums we had a few self-professed experts who overstated their level and range of knowledge of thlIngan Hol, claimed to represent both Okrand and the KLI in their pronouncements, and caused a lot of trouble by correcting other posters’ attempts with a heavy hand and a bad attitude. I think it turned many posters off of Klindom in general and the language aspects in specific.

Neither Lady K’Zin nor myself are students of ta’ Hol, nor do we claim to be. At the height of our frantic attempts at damage containment, a KLI Grammarian contacted me off-board and told me that these people were giving out a lot of wrong information and didn’t certainly didn’t represent the KLI or Okrand. He gave several examples, breaking down each into its components and explaining in detail where the Language Police had gone very, very wrong in their “Well I’m just trying to help you get it right!” corrections. Though I cannot claim to read a blank mind, I believe this is what Klythe is speaking of when when talking about The Language Police. (Given the foul behavior of these few, the KLI as a whole might want to apply a bit of peer pressure toward its own. These rotten fruit were ruining the reputation of the restaurant and its staff.)

As a result of that mess, we do not recognize any heirarchy of thlIngan Hol enthusiasts in these Forums. In the manner of the word warfare that permeates the boards, it tends to be those who give the best explanations and breakdowns of construction who earn the greatest credibility and respect. Demonstrating why linguistic “purity” works better than straying into forbidden territory is more likely to get people to agree with your perspective than lecturing about it. I for one appreciate your contributions, especially when I think back to the Bad Old Days of arrogant fanboys making it up as they went along and bullying others.

You write: “It pains me to see people use Klingon sloppily, sometimes from inexperience, but also sometimes from laziness and arrogance.” I see a difference between sloppiness born of laziness and the inexperienced who are trying to express themselves with tools they are not yet equipped to handle. To those of you who fall into the latter group: writing in thlIngan Hol is like writing in any other language. You have to learn the rules and demonstrate that you can apply them before you get to break them. As such, my concern is one of accuracy over purity.


(Addendum: It appears that while I was composing, Klythe was posting. #$^&!$%^&.  Ah well.  Everything I wrote still stands. Excuse me while I go clean up his BBCode.)

[ter'eS]

Klythe, Kesvirit, thank you for your explanations. I took offense where none was intended, and I in turn will apologize for that.

But I think in general we need to be clear about people posting Klingon texts and what they expect in doing so.  I would suggest that a good rule of thumb is a) If the poster didn't ask for a critique, none should be given by anyone, but b) in this case, no-one else should assume anything about the correctness of that poster's Klingon. For example, sometimes people post things, especially in the Klingon Conversation section, with a vague "hope that's right", that leaves me wondering if they really want advice or not.  I really don't want to be seen as the guy who jumps on every newbie.

BTW, for all intents and purposes, the KLI doesn't exist anymore, so it really can't police it's members, and there wasn't much it could do about "rogue grammarians" even in its prime.

[Kesvirit]

Klythe, Kesvirit, thank you for your explanations. I took offense where none was intended, and I in turn will apologize for that.

  Your apology is both gracious and accepted. }}: )

But I think in general we need to be clear about people posting Klingon texts and what they expect in doing so.  I would suggest that a good rule of thumb is a) If the poster didn't ask for a critique, none should be given by anyone,...

The Conversation in thlIngan Hol only subforum was initially established as a sandbox in which The Language Police, who insisted it was their right to post in thlIngan Hol, could go play with themselves without causing further uproar in the rest of the playground. 

You articulate a problem I was aware of but could not readily define.  It might be solved simply by adding a disclaimer at the top of the Language section, accompanied by instructions to specify when one is asking for feedback. I've also stickied a "Read This" post at the top of the thlIngan Only section.  Take a look and see what you think.

BTW, for all intents and purposes, the KLI doesn't exist anymore, so it really can't police it's members, and there wasn't much it could do about "rogue grammarians" even in its prime.

A pity. They are ideally suited for  target practice.
You have my ears. What lead to the dissolution of the KLI?


[Edit -- that topic continues here.]

[ter'eS]

It might be solved simply by adding a disclaimer at the top of the Language section, accompanied by instructions to specify when one is asking for feedback. I've also stickied a "Read This" post at the top of the thlIngan Only section.  Take a look and see what you think.

That looks good.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

from ter'eS:
And if you're the big, tough Klingon warrior you say you are, you should be able to take some criticism.  If you don't want to do that, then you don't really want to learn Klingon, you just want to be able to give meaningless babble a sort of Klingon-esque feel.  I just don't understand the motivation.  It's like saying you're writing limericks or haiku and then ignoring the conventions of meter and rhyme unique to them.

I love the Klingon language and have spent years honing my skills, not because I thought it made me cool or special, but just because I loved it.  It pains me to see people use Klingon sloppily, sometimes from inexperience, but also sometimes from laziness and arrogance. That said, I am done offering grammar advice on this board, precisely because I'm tired of being the Language Police.  I'm not responding any more unless specifically asked.

Well ter'eS, I wonder if those people you mention include myself. I guess even some of my latest contributions seem sloppy to you but I just want to produce as much as possible in Klingon in order to learn, and before I post, I review my texts a few times to get it right, in the Okrandian sense. And I understand now that if I want the grammarians discommendation I will specifically ask for it.
There is the matter of A Q law' B Q puS in which I tend to disagree with you because I really think  A and B are things but not necessarily nouns.  Then again I knew nothing of the Klingon language one year ago, so who am I to tell you what is correct and what is not in matters Klingon?

QoghtlhIH'u'

[ter'eS]

from ter'eS:
And if you're the big, tough Klingon warrior you say you are, you should be able to take some criticism.  If you don't want to do that, then you don't really want to learn Klingon, you just want to be able to give meaningless babble a sort of Klingon-esque feel.  I just don't understand the motivation.  It's like saying you're writing limericks or haiku and then ignoring the conventions of meter and rhyme unique to them.

I love the Klingon language and have spent years honing my skills, not because I thought it made me cool or special, but just because I loved it.  It pains me to see people use Klingon sloppily, sometimes from inexperience, but also sometimes from laziness and arrogance. That said, I am done offering grammar advice on this board, precisely because I'm tired of being the Language Police.  I'm not responding any more unless specifically asked.

Well ter'eS, I wonder if those people you mention include myself. I guess even some of my latest contributions seem sloppy to you but I just want to produce as much as possible in Klingon in order to learn, and before I post, I review my texts a few times to get it right, in the Okrandian sense. And I understand now that if I want the grammarians discommendation I will specifically ask for it.
There is the matter of A Q law' B Q puS in which I tend to disagree with you because I really think  A and B are things but not necessarily nouns.  Then again I knew nothing of the Klingon language one year ago, so who am I to tell you what is correct and what is not in matters Klingon?

QoghtlhIH'u'

What you have quoted from me was written in unjustified anger, and I've already apologized for it.  It wouldn't do any good to start pointing fingers.  I have not commented on your stories because I do not want to be seen as the guy who always needs to be the "expert".  Your remark about the "grammarian's discommendation" is exactly what I don't want.  If you see a critique of your work as "discommendation" and not as a learning opportunity, then we probably should just drop it.

[Qunchuy]

...I just want to produce as much as possible in Klingon in order to learn,...I want the grammarians discommendation I will specifically ask for it.

Producing lots of text without inviting feedback is not a good strategy for learning. Practice makes perfect, yes -- but practice of incorrect effort ends up making perfectly incorrect effort.

I too have grown weary of offering corrections and advice only to be scolded for being so unforgiving.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

ter'eS and Qunchuy,

I am terribly sorry that the "discommendation" joke caused such a reaction. I only know the word because of TKD and I love naDHa'ghach as such.
I used the remark Holtej naDHa'ghach vIloS I await the grammarians discommendation   as an invitation to correct me.

For me learning Klingon is both fun and an intellectual exercise.
And I take your "dis or re commendations" seriously. However, in a few cases I think there is a margin of interpretation of the canonical facts.
Feel free to shatter the grammatical mistakes in my contributions.
ghItlhwIj DalaDchugh vay' DavangnISbogh DaQubbogh yIvang If you read my writings, do what you think you have to do.

QoghtlhIH'u'

PS
I have put the Honor and Bloodpie comedy on my weblink after even more editing