honor and bloodpie

[kroki]

Honor, honor, honor
-neS, batlh, quv

They say that the Inuit have lots of words for snow. That is understandable, because that is what their world is made of: ice and snow and here and there some seals if they are lucky.

To the Klingons honor is very important. That is reflected in the fact that quite a few words are to be found in Klingon pertaining to honor.
I concocted a short discussion between a cook and his captain to show myself how it works.

vutwI'vaD ghel HoD: vutwI', nuq chojabpu''a'?
The captain asks the cook: cook, what did you serve me? (prefix trick: you served it to me: cho-)

HoDvaD jang vutwI':
The cook answered the captain:

verb suffix:
SoHvaD 'Iwchab  vIjabta'neS
I have honorably served you bloodpie.

with the prefix trick:
'Iwchab qajabta'neS

adverbial:
batlh SoHvaD 'Iwchab vIjabta'
I have served you bloodpie with honor. (This translation can be misunderstood)

quv as verb
SoHvaD 'Iwchab vIjabta'mo' vIquvlu'bejpu'.
Because I have served you bloodpie I am certainly honored.

quv as noun
SoHvaD 'Iwchab vIjabta'mo' quv vISoqbejpu'.
Because I served you bloodpie I have certainly gained honor.

quvqu' vISoqmeH SoHvaD 'Iwchab vIjabta'.
In order to gain great honor I have served you bloodpie.

and finally:
'Iwchabqoqvam 'eyHa'bogh vISopta'mo' HIq bIrbogh law' vItlhutlhnISqu'
Because I ate this so called bloodpie which is distasteful, I desperately need to drink a lot of liquor which is cold.

vutwI', batlh Daqawbe'lu'taH!
vutwI', Daqawbe'lu'neStaH!
Cook, you will not be remembered with honor!

vutwI', Daqawlu'taH 'ach Daquvbe'lu'
Cook, you will be remembered, but not with honor!


Holtej naDHa'ghach vIloS.
I wait for the grammarians discommendation.

QoghtlhIH'u'

[ter'eS]

majQa' (very good). Not bad at all.

vutwI'vaD ghel Hod: vutwI', nuq chojabpu''a'?
The captain asks the cook: cook, what did you serve me? (prefix trick: you served it to me: cho-)

Throughout, I think you have overused the perfective suffixes -pu'/-ta', treating them like tense markers. Klingon doesn't have tenses, but only marks action as completed.  Context determines if the action was completed in the present, past or future.  For example,when I'm writing a story, I do not put -pu'/-ta' on most verbs, even though the action of the story would be in past tense in English.  Instead, I ask "Has this action already occurred in the timeframe of the story?", and only if it has will I use a perfective suffix.

with the prefix trick:
'Iwchab qajabta'neS

quvqu' vISoqmeH SoHvaD 'Iwchab vIjabta'.
In order to gain great honor I have served you bloodpie.

Since quv is a noun here, you can't add the verb suffix -qu'.  I'm not exactly sure how you'd translate "great honor".  Some possibilities are quv'a' (-'a' augmentative), quv law' (law' = much, many), quv tIn (tIn = big), or even quv qu' (note the space; qu' here is an adjective which officially means "fierce" but can mean "great" in slang).

'Iwchabqoqvam 'eyHa'bogh vISopta'mo' HIq bIrbogh law' vItlhutlhnISqu'
Because I ate this so called bloodpie which is distasteful, I desperately need to drink a lot of liquor which is cold.

The suffix -bogh is a verbal suffix that means the adjective verbs are being used as predicates, so they really come before the noun, which is the subject of the adjective verb: 'eyHa' 'Iwchab the bloodpie is distasteful -> 'eyHa'bogh 'Iwchab the bloodpie which is distastefu.  In the first case, since 'eyHa'bogh 'Iwchab is functionally equal to 'Iwchab 'eyHa' a "distasty" bloodpie, I don't think you need -bogh at all.  On the other hand, in the second instance, you do need -bogh, just placed differently: bIrbogh HIq law'.  This is the only way we know to put more than one adjective on a noun!

Holtej naDHa'ghach vIloS.
I wait for the grammarians discommendation.

'ach naDHa'ghach poQlu'be'bej! (But discommendation is definitely not required)

[tesseraktik]

qanaD HoltejHom ! { "I, a lesser linguist, commend you!", if one can specify a first person subject in such a way }

I wonder about vutwI', Daqawbe'lu'neStaH!
Now, first of all, let me point out that I am an inexperienced Klingonist, but I believe that what Daqawbe'lu'neStaH communicates is not so much that one is remembered without honor, but rather that one is forgotten with honor.  In other words:  It is an honor for one not to remember you!
Perhaps Daqawlu'neSbe'taH would be more appropriate:  "Without honor, you will be remembered!"

That being said, I have some doubts about this usage of -neS.  According to The Klingon Dictionary:

It is used to express extreme politeness or deference.  It is used only in addressing a superior, someone of higher rank in the Klingon social, political, or military hierarchy.  It is never required.

Now, if it "is used only in addressing a superior", that suggests to me that it is the speaker who honors the one(s) to whom he/she is speaking, rather than that the subject(s) honor(s) the object(s).  In other words, ta' , jIweb'eghmoHpu'neS ! does not mean "Emperor, I have disgraced myself with honor!", but rather the -neS is used to humble oneself before the Emperor as one declares that one has disgraced oneself.
In this case, the sentence vutwI', Daqawbe'lu'neStaH! may communicate "Cook for whom I have great respect, you will not be remembered!", and vutwI', Daqawlu'neSbe'taH! "Cook for whom I do not have great respect, you will be remembered!"

Now, I can see how such a phrase might over time become used colloquially to express something different than the original concept (in this case, if would be sort of a "NOT!"-construct:  "You will be honored...  ...NOT!"), but because TKD claims that the suffix is seldom used, I believe that perhaps Klingons not only use the suffix to express deference, but also approach it with deference; misusing so highly-revered a morpheme may be a grave social faux pas.  Remember that Klingon society is highly ritualistic, that honor is a central concept of Klingon culture and that Klingon culture is - as is the point I believe you're making - reflected in the Klingon language; a good Klingon probably does not treat an honorific suffix lightly.

tlhIngan Hol vIyajchu'be' 'e' yIqaw ! DaH Holtej naDHa'ghach vIloS jIH'e' ! { Remember that I do not understand the Klingon language perfectly!  Now I await the grammarian's discommendation ! }

[ter'eS]

I don't really use -neS much, but I tend to think of it as a marker of respect to the person spoken to.  I don't really think of it as equivalent to "with honor", just a general sign of respect.  Pre-Soviet Russia used to have a "word" that was just an -s added to other words, by an inferior to their superior, as in khorosho-s "Very good, your honor."  The sound originally came from the phrase vashe prevoszhoditelstvo (your highness), and the -s still retained the sense of just being a respect marker to the one spoken to, no matter what was being said. You could say negatives like "They're coming to arrest you, you honor" and still use the -s of respect.  In other words, it was a marker of the objective statuses of the two people involved, and not a personal assessment of how the speaker felt about the one spoken to. When I use -neS, I think of it that way.

[kroki]

Thank your ter'eS and Fraek,

My exercise was about the concept honor as such, as much as learning to express myself in the warrior tongue, which I quite enjoy. I understand that the -neS suffix is meant to be used when the speaker addresses a higher ranking Klingon.

This logic exists in the Javanese language as well, not to confuse with the programming language. Javanese has three levels and the middle level only consists of a few words. A Java man  (  anthropoligists among you, I just mean a homo sapiens living on the island of Java) or woman has to take these levels into account when addressing someone with a higher status.  In fact, in Dutch, French and German (to name a few common western languages)  there are two ways to say "you", one of which is meant to show politeness.  This may make it a little bit harder for native English speakers to understand the concept.

With the quv as a noun example a did mean quv qu' with a space. This would not be heard in actual speech.

quv qu' vISoqmeH SoHvaD 'Iwchab vIjabta'.
In order to gain great honor I have served you bloodpie.

tugh jIpaw
I'll be back soon,
QoghtlhIH'u'

[Kesvirit]

::(head)butts into a conversation I have been following with  difficulty::

QoghtlhIH'u'...   Javanese has three levels and the middle level only consists of a few words. A Java man  (  anthropoligists among you, I just mean a homo sapiens living on the island of Java) or woman has to take these levels into account when addressing someone with a higher status.

A Javanese woman told me that when people of differing ethnicities and different native languages interact, everyone involved usually speaks Indonesian as a lingua franca, even if the group consistes of only two Javanese speakers who did not know each other. I suspect the latter is done to avoid inadvertantly giving offense to one who may be of a different social class.

The novelization of ST3:TSFS mentions three strata of an unspecified Klingon language used in the scene between Valkris and Kruge. It “possessed an almost limitless number of forms and variations, every utterance had many layers, many meanings.” (p. 96) Unfortunately the exchange is only two pages long and no examples are given. In the author’s defense, McIntyre is a writer, not a linguist. But it is still worth a look for any Klingonist who has the book. If anyone is interested but doesn't have a copy, I can scan-and-send.

In fact, in Dutch, French and German (to name a few common western languages)  there are two ways to say "you", one of which is meant to show politeness.

[I count three: singular familiar, singular formal (the polite/submissive one), and plural.]

ter’eS...   In other words, it was a marker of the objective statuses of the two people involved, and not a personal assessment of how the speaker felt about the one spoken to. When I use -neS, I think of it that way.

As for the use of {-neS}, something very similar has also passed through some of the Germanic languages: the use of the suffix “-es” as an honorific when addressing someone of high social rank in a very formal setting. The one time I’ve used it out loud with a straight face was when dealing with an ancient, dotty, OLD school Junker lady. I welcomed her with a bow and something containing the phrase “genedeges Frau”, which is akin to “most honored and exalted Lady”. She was delighted to find someone who actually knew their place and knew how to behave. I think I gained a certain respect from her, even though I was but a lowly stablehand. Aetheln, if you will.

The moral of the story: humor and flatter your elders. Doing so gets you that much closer to what you want.

I don’t know if the -es ending is gender neutral or if there is a separate convention for addressing highly ranking men. But as ter’eS says of thlIngan Hol, it is a status marker, and has nothing to do with the speaker’s actual feelings toward the one they are addressing.

[Qunchuy]

...in Dutch, French and German (to name a few common western languages)  there are two ways to say "you", one of which is meant to show politeness.  This may make it a little bit harder for native English speakers to understand the concept.

English too has the formal/familiar duality, though it is long disused in common speech. "Thou" and "thee" still are recognized by most native English speakers.

[kroki]

Hi there,

The honor in genadiges is in genadige meaning merciful, not in the -es ending which is a gender dependent case ending. German has four cases and three genders.

As for Javanese, nowadays for sure more and more people will speak Indonesian instead of Javanese, or whatever there local or regional language is. The Indonesian language exists just since the country became independent in 1948. Before that it was a lingua franca in the archipelago and was in fact still called Malaysian. The official language up till then was Dutch. So most people spoke there regional language, Malaysian and if they attended school also Dutch. Then by the time of Pearl Harbor everyone was forced to learn Japanese. But all this has nothing whatsoever to do with Klingon, other than maybe the notion that if people are occupied they have to learn a new language.

QoghtlhIH'u'

[Kesvirit]

Qunchuy...   English too has the formal/familiar duality, though it is long disused in common speech. "Thou" and "thee" still are recognized by most native English speakers.

Recognized, but often misused (when used at all).

According to this ”the other OED" entry, thou is a second person singular form used in formal situations and, at last accounting, (~1650) formal, used to address one’s social superiors. Which is pretty much what I learnt as a child (post 1650; even I am not that old). I was taught that “thou” was for formal usage, “thee” was more casual in tone, and if in doubt, mumble the ever-useful “tha”.

This chart of archaic English pronouns doesn’t differentiate, but does give a brief history of the thou/thee/you/ye split in usage.

QoghtlhIH'u'...   The honor in genadiges is in genadige meaning merciful, not in the -es ending which is a gender dependent case ending. German has four cases and three genders.

I thank the one for the clarification. Few things can be as dangerous as learning from context. }}: /  The -es would be genitive feminine, then?
I also count plurals with the three genders.  Makes for a nice cubic chart for the adjective endings.

Merciful vs Honorable. Hmmm. I smell another thread topic....

[ter'eS]

According to Wiki (so it must be true!), "thou" was used for the singular 2nd person, and "thee" was its oblique form.  That is, "thou" was used for subjects, and "thee" after verbs and prepositions, also "thy" for the possessive. The plural forms were "ye", "you" and "your".  There was originally no implication of social status, which Wiki speculates came about from their use in translating the King James Bible.

Nowadays, the singular is "you, you, your" and the plural is "y'all, y'all",  and "y'alls" 

[kroki]

Not exactly a cubic chart but a square chart, four by four

                    masculine     feminine     neuter    plural

Nominativ   (Subject)
Genitiv   
Dativ         (Indirect Object: -vaD)
Akkusativ    (Direct Object)

The cubic is four adjective endings and also for the sixteen forms of the definite article "the". Shows you how simple English seems to be compared to it's not so remote relative German.

[Kesvirit]

ter’eS -- Thanks for the info. I was link-hopping on the subject and, getting contradictory information, and trying to fill in the blanks. On the one claw, I should have explained and documented better.

On the other claw, in the local vernacular, I believe the appropriate response is: “Dude. It’s Wikidepdia. 'Nuff said.” I’ve concocted the following sig: “Making a wiki entry is like writing graffiti on the bathroom wall. Anyone with one free hand and the other between their legs can do it.”*  And unless you are an ambidextrous, very coordinated genius, the results are going to be... Well, use your imagination. It will take a fire hose blasting out bleach solution to clean up both messes.

As to the rest, well, I don’t have any sources to site except for family speech patters. I’m guessing it’s a regional thing.

QoghtlhIH'u' -- As for the geometry of adjective endings, all I can say in my defense is that I tend to forget what I know when posting in the middle of the night. It’s been a while, but I did squeek through crystalography and at one point knew all my forms. Squares and cubes are indeed very different, and you have my permission to thunk me upside the head (using hands only).


*Addendum: with a tip of the Daqtaq to Klythe and Mark for helping me come up with a G-rated edition. You should have seen the first version.

[Kehlan]

thou is a second person singular form used in formal situations and, at last accounting, (~1650) formal, used to address one’s social superiors. Which is pretty much what I learnt as a child (post 1650; even I am not that old). I was taught that “thou” was for formal usage, “thee” was more casual in tone, and if in doubt, mumble the ever-useful “tha”.

I was taught the opposite.   That 'Thee' and 'Thou' are the informal family useage and 'You' is formal.  As for the differences between thee and thou... Here's a couple of examples...

"I grieve with thee" (Line used by vulcans in Trek)
"How great thou art" (Line from popular hymn)

and of course, 'Thy'.... "Hallowed be thy name" (Line from popular prayer)

Seems to me that a very good place to find correct useage is in the old hymns and prayers.

Incidentally, alot of the Trek novels use the Thee and Thou, mostly incorrectly when writing about the Vulcans.  They often write things like "Thee is wrong"  It is wrong, it would be "Thou art wrong"

 

[kroki]

We got from Klingon honorific -neS to archaic English thou and thee, the meaning of which opinions differ between polite and familiar.
How do we bend this back to the Klingon concept of honor in linguistic detail?

Squares and cubes are indeed very different, and you have my permission to thunk me upside the head (using hands only).

A cube as just a 3D square. I will not thunk you on the head, because I do not know what thunk means, although I have an idea.

By the way, I finally figured out how this quote thing works!

QoghtlhIH'u' (wished that my virtual Klingon parents gave me a simpler name 

[ter'eS]

"I grieve with thee" (Line used by vulcans in Trek)
"How great thou art" (Line from popular hymn)

and of course, 'Thy'.... "Hallowed be thy name" (Line from popular prayer)

Which is exactly as I quoted from Wiki above: "thee" is the oblique case, object of "with", "thou" is actually the subject of the second sentence (which, rearranged in less poetic form, is "thou art how(=so) great!").  And "thy" is possessive ("thy name" = "the name of thee").

Incidentally, alot of the Trek novels use the Thee and Thou, mostly incorrectly when writing about the Vulcans.  They often write things like "Thee is wrong"  It is wrong, it would be "Thou art wrong"

They also did it on the original Star Trek, at least the episode with T'Pau, who doesn't use "thou" at all, only "thee", if I recall.

[tesseraktik]

Incidentally, alot of the Trek novels use the Thee and Thou, mostly incorrectly when writing about the Vulcans.  They often write things like "Thee is wrong"  It is wrong, it would be "Thou art wrong"

I'm guessing this comes from the fact that anglophones are not used to using separate words for "you (subject)" and "you (object)".  It's odd, in a way, that English has "I", "me", "we" and "us" for the first person, "he", "him", "she", "her", "they" and "them" for the third, but just "you" for the second (and "you" is often used to in the fourth person*, too).

Anyhow, some notes on polite Swedish:
Some of my friends have been charmed and others annoyed by my referring to them in the plural; "ni" (subject) and "er" (object) instead of "du" and "dig".  This used to be the polite way to address somebody, although nowadays it is extremely rare.  I've since stopped doing this, so as to avoid confusion.
Quite frequently, I refer to people in the third person ("Hur mår fröken?" -> "How is the Miss?" rather than "Hur mår du?" -> "How are you?") and the fourth ("Hur har man det?" -> "How has one it?" -> roughly "How is one doing?" or "Hur has det?" -> "How is it had?" rather than "Hur har du det?" -> "How are you doing?").  This is common in Swedish conversations (some do this more than others, depending on tastes), although it is my understanding that referring to people in the third/fourth person was once considered to be the mark of a superior attitude (sprung of a desire not to address one's subjects directly), and was mainly used in imperatives.

A cube as just a 3D square. I will not thunk you on the head, because I do not know what thunk means, although I have an idea.

Nay; 'tis the 2-cube that is a two-dimensional analogue of the 3-cube!
Who'd've thunk't?

We got from Klingon honorific -neS to archaic English thou and thee, the meaning of which opinions differ between polite and familiar.
How do we bend this back to the Klingon concept of honor in linguistic detail?

I'll give it a shot:
I certainly agree that -neS is probably more about an objective recognition of status than a mark of one's personal feelings, as the most specific thing we know about its usage is that it's ONLY used when addressing a superior.  However, we also know that it is never required, so one wonders when one should use it.
Now, Marc Okrand describes Klingon society as being highly ritualized, and there are many things that you say because you are meant to say them, rather than in order to express yourself.  This makes it particularly interesting that this suffix is never required.
Now, the suffix is not just polite, but also an expression of deference, which is to say subordination.  Now, we Humans are often reluctant to express deference, because we feel that it diminishes us, but I expect that knowing one's place is very important in Klingon society, and that many Klingons would be honored to admit their inferiority to a superior who is virtuous.
I'm curious to hear what you think of the difference between a -neS that is felt, and a -neS that is forced.  Imagine that there is a new Emperor, and that a Klingon house refuses to swear fealty to him.  The Emperor could then strive to win the respect of the head of this house, and if said head addresses the Emperor with the -neS-suffix, this could send a powerful message to the members of this house.  However, I think that a -neS could in some situations also be an effective euphemism for "I surrender!"  In both cases, the suffix merely recognizes the adressed's status, but the context could perhaps be revealing, too.
I'm having a hard timing putting my thoughts into words, but I hope I've given you some idea.

I know of only one time that -neS has been used in canonical Star Trek, and that was on the TNG episode "The Emissary", where Riker greets K'ehleyr by saying nuqneH qaleghneS {What-do-you-want?  I-you-see-neS}.  I dare say it's not very enlightening; I'm guessing the writers just looked up some common phrases and thought "Okay, this nuqneH is used in greeting, and this qaleghneS is translated here as 'I am honored to see you', so nuqneH qaleghneS should be a polite way to say 'Hi!  Good to have you with us!'"


*By "the fourth person", I am referring to the indefinite or generic form; the one often expressed using -lu' in tlhIngan Hol, and "one" in English.

[kroki]

Hur mår ni? is what I've learned from my Swedish girlfriend 15 years ago. She taught me Swedish from a Dutch-Swedish grammar book. I am a Dutch native speaker myself. But that's an unimportant sideline, I mention just to show off    I've been in Wadstena and Rattvik in 1992. Sjukskoterska, nurse is the funniest word I've learned and System Bolaget, the States Liquor Store seems to me the strangest commercial phenomenon in modern western society. I traveled through Copenhagen to Sweden and in Denmark I was surprised by the lack of the pronunciation of consonants in Danish, as opposed to both Dutch and Swedish.

Nay; 'tis the 2-cube that is a two-dimensional analogue of the 3-cube!
Who'd've thunk't?
I certainly agree that -neS is probably more about an objective recognition of status than a mark of one's personal feelings, as the most specific thing we know about its usage is that it's ONLY used when addressing a superior. 

Now, Marc Okrand describes Klingon society as being highly ritualized, and there are many things that you say because you are meant to say them, rather than in order to express yourself.  This makes it particularly interesting that this suffix is never required.

Now, we Humans are often reluctant to express deference, because we feel that it diminishes us,

Western people living in modern western democratic society often feel no need for tradition, feel reluctant to express deference. But this is a rather new situation for most people on this planet. The example I gave about Javanese having three levels of politeness, deference or subordination, was actually the case up till the 19th century when there were still Javanese rulers within a highly ritualized society. The combination of Dutch colonization, Indonesian independence and the use of the Malaysian lingua franca  instead of Javanese (the language of the majority, but spoken only on one of many islands) as the national language changed all that.
And there was more social stratification before the 20th century in all of Europe (House of Lords vs. House of Commons).
How that was reflected in the different languages I don't know, but I guess it did. Until recently in Dutch there were lists of how to address people of nobility, royalty, the judicial system and even of different levels of academic degree. Most of these terms are not really used anymore. As far as I know "Excellentie" (your excellence) is used to address a minister and "Edelachtbare" (your honor) to say something to a judge, "mevrouw de koningin" (miss queen) to the queen, but that's about it.

Personally I think the -neS should be used when a superior is addressed. And it should also reflect the feelings of the speaker: in my example it may be that the vutwI', cook, may feel a bit lowly towards his HoD, captain and therefore uses honorifics. At the same time some other crewmember might be more casual to his captain and never even consider of saying anything like:

HoD,  ra'meylIj vIloSneS
Captain, I honorably await your orders.

In the introduction of the TKD Okrand says a new Klingon dialect comes with the Emperor. Who knows what peculiarities this other dialect will have?
 
As for Star Trek TV episodes: is there any involvement of Marc Okrand when Klingon is spoken? If not, then "canon" is a very shaky concept as far as Klingon is considered.

QoghtlhIH'u'

[Qunchuy]

Personally I think the -neS should be used when a superior is addressed.

That is what The Klingon Dictionary says it's for.

Klingon for the Galactic Traveler provides additional examples of its usage, like so:
HIvneS honor-attack (implied suicide attack)
HubneS honor-defend (implied defend to certain death)

At the same time some other crewmember might be more casual to his captain and never even consider of saying anything like:

HoD,  ra'meylIj vIloSneS
Captain, I honorably await your orders.

ra' order is a verb, so it can't be used that way in a sentence. Try this instead:
HoD, chora' 'e' vIloSneS

As for Star Trek TV episodes: is there any involvement of Marc Okrand when Klingon is spoken? If not, then "canon" is a very shaky concept as far as Klingon is considered.

The issue of Klingon language canon is actually quite well defined. That which appears on screen is Star Trek canon. That which is written (or explicitly acknowledged as correct) by Marc Okrand is tlhIngan Hol canon.

[Kesvirit]

QoghtlhIH'u'...   

Kesvirit on 10 08, 2008, 11:26: PM
Squares and cubes are indeed very different, and you have my permission to thunk me upside the head (using hands only).

A cube as just a 3D square. I will not thunk you on the head, because I do not know what thunk means, although I have an idea.

[professorial] “Thunk” is an onomatopoeia, which is defined as “the formation of a word, as cuckoo or boom, by imitation of a sound made by or associated with its referent.” It is one of the most difficult words in the English language to spell. [/professorial]

“Thunk” is a noise made by rapping on a watermelon to determine how ripe it is. It is also easily recognized as the sound made when your father flicks his fingers very hard against your head.

QoghtlhIH'u'...   By the way, I finally figured out how this quote thing works!
QoghtlhIH'u' (wished that my virtual Klingon parents gave me a simpler name 

An unfortunate downside of free software. It tends to be lacking in instructions as to how to use it. If you run into any further trouble with it, contact me or Klythe and we’ll help you as best we can. As for your name, you can change your posting name to an abbreviated version of your current one, or to a nickname of your choosing. Again, contact me or Klythe if you wish to do that.

ter’eS...   Nowadays, the singular is "you, you, your" and the plural is "y'all, y'all",  and "y'alls" 

Then this would make “y’alls”/”y’all’s” the second person plural gentative because it relates to possession, yes? (My one academic achievement is having successfully dodged every composition class ever thrown in my path, so I’m still learning about this thing which the rest of y’all call grammar.)

QoghtlhIH'u'...   As for Star Trek TV episodes: is there any involvement of Marc Okrand when Klingon is spoken? If not, then "canon" is a very shaky concept as far as Klingon is considered.

Qunchuy...   The issue of Klingon language canon is actually quite well defined. That which appears on screen is Star Trek canon. That which is written (or explicitly acknowledged as correct) by Marc Okrand is tlhIngan Hol canon.

The organization that you claim to represent says otherwise in its own wiki article, which has remained unchanged and unchallenged for the last four and a half years. Apparently the campaign to End Paramount Hol! was unsuccessful.
 
*sigh* I could contribute much more to this thread if only I spoke Dutch.... The nearest I ever came to that was decoding historical markers written in Afrikaans. Not The Same.

[kroki]

As for your name, you can change your posting name to an abbreviated version of your current one, or to a nickname of your choosing. Again, contact me or Klythe if you wish to do that.

Thank you, but I was just kidding...  I already changed it once. The quoting thing however is a bit tedious, but I found out that the trick is just to quote everything and then delete what is not needed.
I choose this nickname because it contains the hardest Klingon consonants, in my opinion. And it sounds like someone is coughing, sneezing and throwing up all at once 

QoghtlhIH'u'

PS:

vutwI'vaD ja' HoD: Said the captain to the cook

bIHeghmeH QaQ jajvam.
Today is a good day to die for you

lutvam "quv 'Iwchab je taHlu' ...
this story "honor and bloodpie" to be continued ....




 

[ter'eS]

ter’eS...   Nowadays, the singular is "you, you, your" and the plural is "y'all, y'all",  and "y'alls" 

Then this would make “y’alls”/”y’all’s” the second person plural gentative because it relates to possession, yes? (My one academic achievement is having successfully dodged every composition class ever thrown in my path, so I’m still learning about this thing which the rest of y’all call grammar.)

It is the genitive form, but if you're putting a second apostrophe ' in there (hard to tell on my monitor), then, no, its just y'alls, by analogy with its. The word it's is a contraction for it is, the apostrophe showing the dropping of the i.  Y'all's would then be y'all is, but you'd really use the plural form of to be, and say y'all are (or even more likely, y'aller, as in "y'aller comin', ainchew?").

For even more fun, I just finished reading a novel set in North Carolina, and they pronounced it y'allses, as in "git y'allses buttses ovah heah".

Note to non-English speakers: y'all is very non-standard English, so discussion of its spelling is speculative.  I included it just for fun. In standard English, we just use the various forms of you for singular and plural.

[tesseraktik]

Hur mår ni? is what I've learned from my Swedish girlfriend 15 years ago. She taught me Swedish from a Dutch-Swedish grammar book. I am a Dutch native speaker myself. But that's an unimportant sideline, I mention just to show off    I've been in Wadstena and Rattvik in 1992. Sjukskoterska, nurse is the funniest word I've learned and System Bolaget, the States Liquor Store seems to me the strangest commercial phenomenon in modern western society. I traveled through Copenhagen to Sweden and in Denmark I was surprised by the lack of the pronunciation of consonants in Danish, as opposed to both Dutch and Swedish.

Indeed, in Sweden we often claim that all you have to do to speak Danish is to speak Swedish but leave out most of the consonants
As for "Hur mår ni?":  Aye, that used to be the polite way to say it, although nowadays you'll get some weird looks if you use it, as "ni" is the plural form of "you", and using it to address a single person is considered to be very old-fashioned.  It's sometimes used in formal writing, and in formal writing "du" and "ni" are usually spelled with the first letter capitalized ("Du" and "Ni").

Bara riddare säger "Ni"!  (Only knights say "Ni"!)

Personally I think the -neS should be used when a superior is addressed.

That is what The Klingon Dictionary says it's for.

Klingon for the Galactic Traveler provides additional examples of its usage, like so:
HIvneS honor-attack (implied suicide attack)
HubneS honor-defend (implied defend to certain death)

Indeed, the only thing we know for sure is that -neS is only used when addressing a superior.  I'm guessing neither -neSbe' nor -neSHa' are considered to be correct constructs, but if they were to be used I'm guessing -neSbe' would convey something like "I don't recognize you as my superior", and -neSHa' either "I used to consider you to be my superior, but not anymore" or "I consider you to be my subordinate"; I wouldn't be surprised if somebody has at some point been killed over such a construct.

As for HIvneS and HubneS, those are a bit odd, as it is the one who performs the attack who is honored (indeed, a suicide attacker is probably considered to be superior to practically anybody who is still alive), rather than the person being spoken to.  I'm guessing that they are actually old compound words that are not meant to be broken down (similar to the word 'ejDo' (starship); on their own, neither 'ej nor Do' have meanings pertaining to starships, Marc Okrand speculates in TKD that they once might have, and the the word 'ejDo' might have outlived its components).  In that case, one could say for instance qaHubneSnISneS, and this could roughly translate as "Honored one, I need to protect you with my life!"

Reason for editing:  Wrote -nIS (need) where I meant -qang (willing); edited the English translation to match.

[Qunchuy]

Qunchuy...   The issue of Klingon language canon is actually quite well defined. That which appears on screen is Star Trek canon. That which is written (or explicitly acknowledged as correct) by Marc Okrand is tlhIngan Hol canon.

The organization that you claim to represent says otherwise in its own wiki article, which has remained unchanged and unchallenged for the last four and a half years.

Nothing on that page contradicts what I said, so far as I can tell. What "otherwise" are you talking about? Please clarify.

[kroki]

In that case, one could say for instance qaHubneSnISneS, and this could roughly translate as "Honored one, I'd give my life to protect you!"

Could you spell this one out?
qaHubneS means I defend you with honor
It cannot be followed by -nIS which is a type 2 suffix and -neS is type 8
Or did you mean to say
qaHubneS 'ej jIHeghnISchugh 'ach jIHIv
I defend you with honor and even if I have to die I attack

Maybe I get it all wrong, but:
Qagh QaQ law' vay' nIDbe' QaQ puS jatlh SoQHom tIQ
An ancient proverb says: Better to make mistakes than not to try anything

chaq mughHa' SoQHomvam
Maybe this proverb is wrongly translated

'ej chaq muj mughlaHghach
.. perhaps this translation is wrong

Holtej naDHa'ghach vIloSqa'
Again I await the grammarians discommendation 

QoghtlhIH'u'

[tesseraktik]

In that case, one could say for instance qaHubneSnISneS, and this could roughly translate as "Honored one, I'd give my life to protect you!"

Could you spell this one out?
qaHubneS means I defend you with honor
It cannot be followed by -nIS which is a type 2 suffix and -neS is type 8
Or did you mean to say
qaHubneS 'ej jIHeghnISchugh 'ach jIHIv
I defend you with honor and even if I have to die I attack

Basically, I do not believe that the neS in HubneS is meant to be taken as a suffix, as it seems out of place; I believe that it is to be seen as a component of the word, perhaps one with the same etymology as the -neS-suffix.  -nIS is therefore the first suffix in the word qaHubneSnISneS.