Specifying first and second person subjects/objects

[tesseraktik]

When speaking in the third person, we can refer to something as a him, a her or an it, but we can also use a word that says something more about the him/her/it, such as by referring to him/her/it as a soldier, or a cook, or a meal.  I was wondering if one can do the same with the first and second person?

Should an Emperor say of his brother that "My brother serves his Emperor!", a straightforward translation would be ta'Daj toy' loDnI'wI', however in this case the Emperor is speaking of himself in the third person.  Would ta'Daj mutoy' loDnI'wI' be an appropriate way to say "My brother serves me, his Emperor!"?
Of course, I'd like to know if this could be done for second person subjects, too.  Take for instance the sentence ta'ra' HItoy' SuvwI'pu'; would this be a proper way in which to say "You warriors will serve me, your Emperor!"?

[ter'eS]

This seems to me to be a good time to make the case for composing your Klingon sentences directly in Klingon, and not translating from a prior phrase in your native language.  I don't know the answer to your questions, although I do know that using mu- "he-me" looks really weird with a noun object before it. But I suspect that your difficulty stems from trying to fit English rhetorical devices into a Klingon framework. For example, I'd say ta'Daj jIH; 'ej mutoy' loDnI'wI' "I am the Emperor; and your brother serves me."  This expresses the same idea, I believe, but does it using well-established Klingon grammar.

[tesseraktik]

This seems to me to be a good time to make the case for composing your Klingon sentences directly in Klingon, and not translating from a prior phrase in your native language.  I don't know the answer to your questions, although I do know that using mu- "he-me" looks really weird with a noun object before it. But I suspect that your difficulty stems from trying to fit English rhetorical devices into a Klingon framework. For example, I'd say ta'Daj jIH; 'ej mutoy' loDnI'wI' "I am the Emperor; and your brother serves me."  This expresses the same idea, I believe, but does it using well-established Klingon grammar.

Actually, I did originally construct sentences such as this one in Klingon; I thought this might be somewhat of a strength with Klingon, in that the object-subject-prefix could be used to grant additional meaning to the object and subject nouns.  Ah well; I suppose I shall have to tread carefully unless I find some sort of precedent for this

[Qunchuy]

Using explicit nouns with first- and second-person verb prefixes works for me. I'm surprised to find that to be the case, since I would have expected the "rule of rom (accord)" to prevent it, but it doesn't violate my acquired "feel" for the language. My own acceptance of the construction should by no means be considered approval of it as grammatically proper, however.

[kroki]

For example, I'd say ta'Daj jIH; 'ej mutoy' loDnI'wI' "I am the Emperor; and your brother serves me." 

Typo's?
ta'Daj jIH; 'ej mutoy' loDnI'wI'
I am his emperor and my brother serves me.


So

ta' jIH 'ej mutoy' loDnI'lI'
I am the Emperor; and your brother serves me

QoghtlhIH'u'

'oy'taHghach jIH 'ej vay' mutoy'bogh lutu'be'
I am a pain, and nobody serves me
(that being painful I am, and somebody to serve me is not found)

[tesseraktik]

For example, I'd say ta'Daj jIH; 'ej mutoy' loDnI'wI' "I am the Emperor; and your brother serves me." 

Typo's?
ta'Daj jIH; 'ej mutoy' loDnI'wI'
I am his emperor and my brother serves me.


So

ta' jIH 'ej mutoy' loDnI'lI'
I am the Emperor; and your brother serves me

QoghtlhIH'u'

'oy'taHghach jIH 'ej vay' mutoy'bogh lutu'be'
I am a pain, and nobody serves me
(that being painful I am, and somebody to serve me is not found)

That's a sharp eye, you have; I completely missed that!  Actually, though, ter'eS demonstrated that he lives by his own advice of constructing sentences directly in Klingon, as he got the Klingon right and the English slightly off; kudos to the both of you!

Just for reference, I picked that sentence because I always watch Ivanhoe (starring Anthony Andrews) on New Year's Day, and every year I hear King Richard say of Prince John "My brother now serves his King!" (or something to that effect).  Now, if you are aware that King Richard considers himself to be Prince John's King, this sentence is equivalent to "My brother now serves me!"; my hope was to be able to express both of these concepts to a listener who may not be aware of neither of the two (to whom the statements would therefore not be equivalent).  I know that I can accomplish this by use of two sentences or with a -bogh, but my hope was to be able to accomplish the effect more effectively by simply assigning the object with a grammatical person.

[kroki]

quote

That's a sharp eye, you have; I completely missed that!  Actually, though, ter'eS demonstrated that he lives by his own advice of constructing sentences directly in Klingon, as he got the Klingon right and the English slightly off; kudos to the both of you!

Constructing sentences directly in Klingon is too hard for me. Instead I construct the sentences in Klinglish which is the literal way of translation tlhIngan Hol into English, in the way Marc Okrand does it.
For example elsewhere I constructed:

Qagh QaQ law' vay' nIDbe' QaQ puS
It is better to make a mistake than not to try anything.

In my head I made up the sentence like:
mistaking is good is many, something not trying is good is few
this is Klinglish for me.
I regularly bend my brains to try to make up new sentences using the pre- and suffixes and the syntactic rules to begin with. Thinking in Klingon is another matter.

QoghtlhIH'u'

[ter'eS]

Qagh QaQ law' vay' nIDbe' QaQ puS
It is better to make a mistake than not to try anything.

Only nouns can come first in an "N1 Q law', N2 Q puS" comparative (N1, N2 = nouns, Q = quality verb).  While Qagh  can be a noun as well as a verb, nID is only a verb, so this sentence is not grammatical. You usually have to preface the whole sentence with a verb phrase to do what you are trying to do, such as bInIDDI', Qagh QaQ law' Hoch QaQ puS. "When you try, a mistake is better than everything else." , which really means "When you try, mistakes are the best."  I'm afraid your klinglish is still leading you astray.  You're trying to construct a comparative sentence in Klingon because that's what it is in English. I would probably take a totally different approach: bInIDDI',  bIQaghchugh, bIQapbej; bInIDbe'DI, bIlujbej. "When you try, you succeed even if you make a mistake; when you do not try, you fail."

There may be a better way to put that, but that's what comes to mind.

[kroki]

TKD
Comparatives

A Q law' B Q puS
A and B are things (not necessarily nouns)


STAR TREK V: THE FINAL FRONTIER
qIbDaq SuvwI' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
You are the greatest warrior in the galaxy
(in the galaxy warrior you great many all great few)

qIbDaq SuvwI' SoH in the galaxy warrior you are is not a noun

STAR TREK VI: THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY
QamvIS Hegh qaq law' torvIS yIn qaq puS
Better to die on our feet than live on our knees.
(While standing die prefer many while kneeling live prefer less)
QamvIS Hegh die while standing is not a noun

QoghtlhIH'u'

[ter'eS]

A and B are things (not necessarily nouns)

I should have said "nouns or noun equivalents"

Both of your example sentences have grammatical "issues" beyond the comparative.

STAR TREK V: THE FINAL FRONTIER
qIbDaq SuvwI' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
You are the greatest warrior in the galaxy
(in the galaxy warrior you great many all great few)

qIbDaq SuvwI' SoH in the galaxy warrior you are is not a noun

The central comparison SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS has a pronoun and a noun in the A positions.  The hard part is figuring out what the qIbDaq SuvwI' is doing there. It appears to be intended to mean something like "Among the warriors of the galaxy (you are the best)".  But elsewhere Okrand has been very clear that you can't modify a noun with a suffixed noun; "warriors of the galaxy" would properly be qIbDaq SaHbogh SuvwI' "warriors (being) in the galaxy".  The phrase might be intended to mean "In the galaxy, you are the best warrior" (with qIbDaq modifying the whole phrase), but then you can't account for the placement of SuvwI'.  If it's supposed to be an N1 N2 phrase, it would mean "you of the warriors", which seems odd.  Even if that is it's intended purpose, an N1 N2 phrase is a noun equivalent, so legal for the A element.

STAR TREK VI: THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY
QamvIS Hegh qaq law' torvIS yIn qaq puS
Better to die on our feet than live on our knees.
(While standing die prefer many while kneeling live prefer less)
QamvIS Hegh die while standing is not a noun

QoghtlhIH'u'

This phrase also appears in The Klingon Way, where it's grammar is described as archaic.  This accounts for the -vIS phrases without -taH. In the central comparison Hegh qaq law' yIn qaq puS, both Hegh and yIn are functioning as nouns.  Both halves of the comparative are expanded upon by subordinate verb phrases, QamvIS... torvIS, but this is allowed (actually, putting a verb phrase before the second part is a bit unusual, but that's proverbs for you).  These aren't part of the A element of the comparative, but adverbial comment on the comparative as a whole: "While we are standing, death is better; while we are kneeling, life is worse."

Both of the phrases you quote support my statement that the A element of an A Q law' A Q puS comparative must be a thing.  In your original comparative, nIDbe' is definitely a verb, and there is no noun element on that side of the comparative.

[Qunchuy]

TKD
Comparatives

A Q law' B Q puS
A and B are things (not necessarily nouns)

Don't you remember your Grammar Rock? Things are nouns. So are people and places. The important point here is that actions are not things. Verbs do not fit the A/B slot.

STAR TREK V: THE FINAL FRONTIER
qIbDaq SuvwI' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
You are the greatest warrior in the galaxy

I thought it was qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
As for warriors in the galaxy, you are the most wonderful of all.

This is very similar to the replacement proverb reH latlh qabDaq qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS
Fire is always hottest on someone else's face

ter'eS has already addressed the QamvIS Hegh/torvIS yIn phrase at least as well as I could have.

[ter'eS]

I thought it was qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS
As for warriors in the galaxy, you are the most wonderful of all.

If this is the case, then ths is easily understood as a comparative qualified by 2 adverbial phrases: In the galaxy as opposed to somewhere else as for warriors and not bakers (for example), you are the most wonderful.