Nature of Klingon Society

[qurgh]

posted on 3-6-2003 at 01:47 PM

Originally posted by qurgh :lol: !!! I used Mrs. Mogh because I didn't know the mothers name. Of course he would have said "Worf, son of "Mothers name"". The Klingons don't use Mr or Mrs, so no Klingon would say Son/Daughter of Mr/Mrs Joe Klingon.

Originally posted by Kesvirit If this is true, then "seriously", why did you not simply say "Worf, Son of Mother's Name"? You do not need to know what it is to indicate that he indeed had a mother and that she had a name.

If "Of course he would have said "Worf, son of "Mothers name" " (sic), why did you say otherwise? One would almost think you meant what you wrote.

posted by qurgh Dude, thats so funny that you seriously thought I ment he would say "Mrs Mogh"! :lol::lol::lol:

posted by Kesvirit Seriously, "Dude", the humor in your post has completely escaped my attention. Your attitude has not, and is not appreciated. Nor is your assumption of my gender, nor your mode of address. My name is Kesvirit, as indicated beside every one of my posts and at the end of many of them. It is not Dude. Make a note of this for future reference.

:lol: !! hehe, ok, firstly, I'm English and in England we use Mr and Mrs a lot more than it is used in the US. Whenever I generalize about a person who I only know one partner of I say Mr/Mrs Partners name. Ie, in my world Mrs Mogh = Worf's Mother's Name. It's a cultural difference, thats all.

I guess it's another cultural difference. I use dude when I'm making a joke. Even if you were the king of spain I'd still have used dude in that sentance.

 

[tmk1000]

posted on 3-6-2003 at 11:51 PM

Kesvirit

My name is Kesvirit, as indicated beside every one of my posts and at the end of, as indicated beside every one of my posts and at the end of. It is not Dude. Make a note of this for future reference.

And if you please stop saying " the one " in your posts when talking about another member in your words, My name is tmk1000, as indicated beside every one of my posts and at the end of all of them.So please use my username

[Kesvirit]

posted on 3-7-2003 at 06:43 AM

Enough!

originally posted by qurgh I'm English and in England we use Mr and Mrs a lot more than it is used in the US. Whenever I generalize about a person who I only know one partner of I say Mr/Mrs Partners name. Ie, in my world Mrs Mogh = Worf's Mother's Name. It's a cultural difference, thats all.

Part of claiming "cultural differences" means respecting other people's preferences, and common courtesy includes not setting your default reference to "he". Has it not occurred to you that not all posters on this board are male and should not be presumed to be? I prefer not to be called "Dude". I have not assumed that you and I are on a level of friendship where I may indiscriminitely call you "Babe" in public, have I?

originally posted by qurgh I guess it's another cultural difference. I use dude when I'm making a joke. Even if you were the king of spain I'd still have used dude in that sentance.

If you were meeting with the King of Spain you would have been briefed ahead of time by a governmental protocol agent as to how to behave in such compnany. I seriously doubt that you would address him as anything other than the equivalent of "Your Majesty", or perhaps "Sir" since you are not one of his subjects. Were you to address him as "Dude", even if the meeting did not end with your de facto dismissal I suspect that you would be looked down upon for insulting him and neither you nor your business with the king would be given any further serious consideration.

originally posted by tmk1000
And if you please stop saying " the one "
in your posts when talking about another member in your words, My name is tmk1000, as indicated beside every one of my posts and at the end of all of them.So please use my username

The phrase "the one" is an honorable and long-used expression of personal acknowlegement, usually meaning "you". On those occasions when it is not it is used in reference to whomever is being talked about. It removes the speaker a step from the subject, and is used to indicate respect without acknowleging/admitting subservience or otherwise giving ground. It is probably the nearest thing to conversational equality observed in status-conscious Klingon society. However, if you do not wish to be granted such a courtesy I will respect your request.

- Kesvirit

[qurgh]

posted on 3-7-2003 at 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Kesvirit
Part of claiming "cultural differences" means respecting other people's preferences, and common courtesy includes not setting your default reference to "he". Has it not occurred to you that not all posters on this board are male and should not be presumed to be? I prefer not to be called "Dude". I have not assumed that you and I are on a level of friendship where I may indiscriminitely call you "Babe" in public, have I?

Ahh, I see. Dude to me refers to both men and women, like ghaH does in Klingon (or mate, bud, friend, pal, guy). Babe on the other hand is a slang term for an attractive female in my vocab (and the name of a small pig), but if you want to call me a babe in public, go ahead, I've been called worse As for everyone elses gender on this board, your right, I have no idea, and most people won't tell me anyway.. Sooooo... I'll keep using words that I think are non-gender specfic and hope people correct me on the way. (BTW, I am of the male gender, so call me what you please)

originally posted by Kesvirit If you were meeting with the King of Spain you would have been briefed ahead of time by a governmental protocol agent as to how to behave in such compnany. I seriously doubt that you would address him as anything other than the equivalent of "Your Majesty", or perhaps "Sir" since you are not one of his subjects. Were you to address him as "Dude", even if the meeting did not end with your de facto dismissal I suspect that you would be looked down upon for insulting him and neither you nor your business with the king would be given any further serious consideration.

Naw, I wouldn't call the king of spain sir or your majesty. Firstly, I have a queen (woot) and secondly I'll call him dude and he won't understand what I'm talking about, since I don't speak any spanish.

You know, I really do wish that English had a non-gender specfic third person pronoun that covered he/she/it like in Klingon. ghaH is such a useful pronoun, I don't ever have to worry about gender. I think I'll start using ghaH in English and see if it catched on.

So, Kesvirit, are you regretting getting me to come back yet? You do know I'm teasing you right?
 

[tmk1000]

posted on 3-7-2003 at 07:36 PM

The phrase "the one" is an honorable and long-used expression of personal acknowlegement, usually meaning "you". On those occasions when it is not it is used in reference to whomever is being talked about. It removes the speaker a step from the subject, and is used to indicate respect without acknowleging/admitting subservience or otherwise giving ground. It is probably the nearest thing to conversational equality observed in status-conscious Klingon society. However, if you do not wish to be granted such a courtesy I will respect your request.

i stand currected.i thought you just did not want to use use my name like qurgh did not use yours insted he used Dude
if you wish to use "the one" it is fine with me .

[qelIy]

posted on 3-9-2003 at 12:05 PM

i've been following the discussion with interest. to return to the subject Klingons and gender bashing generally:

i find it very interesting that part of the Klingon marriage ceremony is a simulated battle between the genders - in which the bride defeats the groom in battle. Is this an indication that marriage is thought of as an alliance? as in, "to this day, no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts."

my understanding of marriage in patriarchal societies is to assign a male protector/owner to financially support and make decisons for a helpless female in return for which she serves as his slave and provides him with children.

if Klingon males choose females based on respect as warriors, that sounds like an equal relationship to me.
if the bride is actually expected to be able to defeat the groom in battle, that would be matriarchal.
nothing in the marriage ceremony indicates that the bride is submitting to her husband's rule.
 

[weslipuqlod]

posted on 3-9-2003 at 05:53 PM

My appreciation and thanks to qelIy for her insightful response.

qurgh has presented another good arguement, ignoring the physical aspects of gender for leadership based solely upon Honor and status.

There is much to be learned from this discussion and it is best served by being able to take specific examples within context and evaluate them from all perspectives.

This "one" is still learning and appreciates the attention given to this thread.

[Kesvirit]

posted on 3-9-2003 at 07:08 PM

originally posted by qurgh So, Kesvirit, are you regretting getting me to come back yet?

Of course not. Your participation and contributions to the Forums are greatly appreciated. It was your approach and mode of address that I took issue to.

originally posted by qurgh You know, I really do wish that English had a non-gender specfic third person pronoun that covered he/she/it like in Klingon.

There are several different English language alternative/inclusive pronouns available for use, though none are used much due to cultural inertia and resistance by the maintainers of the status quo (e.g., English teachers). It is one reason I frequently use "the one" or refer to people by name. I have also incured the wrath of many an English teacher (as well as those of other subjects) by using the word "they" to indicate the third person singular (he/she/it).

originally posted by qurgh ghaH is such a useful pronoun, I don't ever have to worry about gender. I think I'll start using ghaH in English and see if it catched on.

It is indeed useful for many reasons, though I have seen many ignorant Humans as well as ranking members of the KLI mistranslate it as "he" when context does not warrant it.

As to using "ghaH" amongst habitual speakers of English who are unfamiliar with tlhIngan Hol, proceed with caution -- they may think you are choking, and even when performed correctly the Heimlich maneuver can result in cracked ribs.

originally posted by qelIy if find it very interesting that part of the Klingon marriage ceremony is a simulated battle between the genders - in which the bride defeats the groom in battle. Is this an indication that marriage is thought of as an alliance? as in, "to this day, no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts."

The general pattern in feudal/dynastic societies is that marriage is precisely that -- an alliance, prearranged by the couple's parents/familial head, usually for political, military, or business purposes. The personal feelings of those about to be married are rarely factored into the equasion. Though this is not a hard and fast rule, I think it argues against interpreting the phrase "no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts" to mean that love conquers all.

As to the bride symbolically defeating the groom, perhaps it is to indicate that she can stand and fight beside her mate to add to family holdings or fight off intruders. Given the general conquer-or-be-conquered mentality prevalent in Klingon society this is something that would be important to both members of the marriage. But since the fight symbolic and not a real one and the specifics of the marriage contract have already been hashed out, it may just confirm that she has been found to be a worthy addition to the (extended) family in whatever contributing role she may ultimately take.

Or it could just mean that she is in excellent physical health and is a worthy specimen through which to pass along her fighting genes and spirit to his sons. This would fit the idea of marriage in patriarchal societies outlined in you above post.

If anyone is interested, there's a thread that expands somewhat on the specifics of Klingon marriage ceremonies.

 - Kesvirit

[kratnor]

posted on 3-27-2003 at 05:42 AM

nature of klingon society

A most spirited discussion. If I may humbly interject my thoughts, it seems possible that the ritual of the Klingon wedding is based on ancient tradition and might not reflect the true status of the female in the House. There has been little mention of two powerful females, Lursa and B'Etor and how they controled the fate of the powerful House of Duras. Did they acquire their status meerly through fear and intimidation? Was this accomplished meerly with wealth or by battle? It is probable that not all klingons consider honor an absolute and are influeced by latinum.
kra'tnor
 

[tmk1000]

posted on 4-23-2003 at 06:15 PM

If some one has a way to watch the DS9 Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places I think you will see my view.
 

[Ambassador Lady K'Zin]

posted on 6-28-2003 at 09:51 PM

I was just re-reading some of this thread and it occured to me that I might remind some people *once again* that the Klingon Empire covers an awful lot of space and people. According to many sources, it is rumoured to extend to HUNDREDS of planets.

If we have such diversity between the hundreds of cultures and societies on one single planet (Earth); you honestly can't conceive of the fact that there might actually be many variations on the Klingon marriage ceremony?

Although we've only seen one "canon" ceremony on TV (see above mention); this might only represent the "traditional" wedding on a particular planet or geographic section of a planet. It doesn't mean that there might not be strong regional variations, which might emphasize certain parts of the ceremony over others, or even totally ignore others, or have totally different parts of it to reflect the cultural variations within their section of the Empire.

Diversity, people, diversity! It's not just for Earthers and Vulcans -- it happens whenever you start to have a large amount of individuals, whether animal or sentient biped. Just because you've seen one example of something (aka, a particular Trek episode) does not mean that you should judge it to be the sole example of how something is done throughout the Empire -- it's just not logical when you actually start thinking about how cultures actually work. As fun as TV and movies might be, they can never actually reflect true examples; otherwise they would be *documentaries*, not entertainment trying to earn a buck from the advertisers.

I encourage more of our forum members to consider that canon should not be the "be all and end all" to everything Klingon, or even Star Trek, for that matter. We've seen how Paramount has managed to contradict themselves over the years, right!! :lol:

Although this particular "world" started with a vision from a single man (Roddenberry), we must come to the conclusion and realize that it has evolved to become much more than that... And just as Klingons were first represented one way within Star Trek (the "baddies"), they evolved to their present representation BECAUSE there was such a tremendous interest in them. Worf was originally meant to be a background character, not a main character that ended up crossing series! (One of the few that did on a permanent basis, Chief O'Brien being the other... there area other recurring characters that show up, but they are not *main* characters).

As much as Paramount would like us to believe that the concept of Klingons began with them and is a totally original idea -- there is no such thing as a truly original idea, especially in television! After thousands of years of culture on this planet, much of present cultures has borrowed in some fashion from those that have come before it; whether it be some aspects of it's mythological tales, it's architecture, it's fashions, even it's language, etc...

Klingon culture borrows from many Terran cultures, be it the "futuristic Genghis Khan" of the original Klingon Kor (to quote the late John Colicos), or the warrior aspects of feudal Japanese society with Bushido and the Samurai. There is also bits and pieces from Viking mythos and even Scottish clans!

Even the famous and recognizable concept of a "Klingon sash" comes from our own history, where a shoulder sash to support a sword, rapier or foil, became more decorative than functional. Which is exactly what the Klingon sash has become; it no longer supports a bladed weapon on the hip -- but rather has become a means by which a Klingon can inform others of his/her family line, alliances, allegiances, rank, honourific, awards and other recognitions, so that two Klingons meeting each other have an immediate understanding of their complex relation to each other from the outset. Does one outrank the other? Are their families allied or enemies? Even a lower ranking officer can be regarded more highly if their sash shows the honours and/or glories that they have earned. It's a very complex "game" of subtleties and recognition of one's place in a hierarchal society.

And although the warrior caste is the one that is most easily recognized (especially by outsiders), it is foolish to ignore the fact that a society needs others to support it. After all, there are Klingon farmers, teachers, janitors, cooks, nursemaids, and yes, even diplomats. Although some might not "rank" as high in the society, they each have their role to fill; and each is an important cog in the machine that is society. Without it, the machine can/will eventually break down, or at least work very inefficiently. And with that same reasoning, we come to gender differences... Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and so it seems only fitting that each finds a spot that suits them, and within which they can become a productive member of society.

That does not mean that ALL Klingon females would make good warriors, just as not all Klingon males would make the cut. However, if a particular individual shows promise and/or has proven themselves, it would be foolish to deny the Empire the opportunity to benefit from this member's particular talents, regardless of gender.

Of course, certain parts of the Empire might be more "open" to such logical ways of thinking, just as some parts might be less forward-thinking and set in the "old ways". Therefore, the concept that the society is not homogeneous and that there might be regional differences in the percentage of patriarchal, matriarchal or a mix of traditions that would exist in any one part of the Empire at any one time. After, these things change over time; so it also depends on *when* you are thinking about; TOS, NextGen, DS9, or even *cough-cough* Enterprise. Betweeen them they cover several generations -- enough time for some parts of a society to evolve and develop new variations on old ways...
 

[tmk1000]

posted on 6-30-2003 at 02:31 AM

it could also be religion. just a thought

[tmk1000]

does no one have a come back? Maybe the new members have some thing to say about the topic??

[K'Voth]

I am honestly not sure personally. Klingon society seems to be deeply complicated and multifaceted. Whilst the law of rule seems to be male dominated, matters of house are controlled by the Lady of the house. Martok as an example seems to take allot of joy in how imperial and bossy his partner is. Which i would assume follows the stereotypical Klingon respect for strength.  Whilst male warriors do say .... Son of.... Female warriors have said (On DS9) .... Daughter of ....  Gender brings with it issues but So does caste. A high born female would surly have more strength in society at large then a low born male.

I suppose the answer lies in many different places considering a society is made up of many different cultures and situations and homogenizing it would give an answer but take away allot of the interest.

[Hod Qhi]

It hink there is a strong Patriarchal leaning to Klingon Culture this can be seen in a number of aspects. The most notable are the Strength of a Father's name, The fact Women can't lead houses and even the fact that they pasted a law saying that no female could lead the high council.

On an every day level it likely a even playing field, however we never seen more than a Female First officer on a KDF ship. Then Again females are member of the Order of the Betleh. No doubtt that woman have influance on the Empire and their houses it likely it not as formal as let say it is in Federation space.