Translating words with Multiple Meanings

[Klythe]

   This is a good example of where the simple  1 to 1 translations we are given in the dictionary and it's annexes is Devastatingly bad.   Responsible has at least four major meanings and four minor meanings.  And I'm quite sure any equivallent Klingon word would not be the same word for all four meanings.

Responsible-  Tasked with a duty or obligation -  He is responsible for cooking the meal today, but he never does...
Responsible-  Reliable in performing duties and obligations-  He is responsible, I would trust him with my daughter.
Responsible-  At fault-      He is responsible for the death of his family
Responsible-  liable for consequences - A captain is responsible for the actions of his crew.  I demand to stand trial in his place.


These are four very different ideas, what does ngoy' really mean?  Might it not even have some usagesm meanings and connotations of it's own that might not match up well with the way native English speakers use the word responsible?

[Qunchuy]

   This is a good example of where the simple  1 to 1 translations we are given in the dictionary and it's annexes is Devastatingly bad.   Responsible has at least four major meanings and four minor meanings.  And I'm quite sure any equivallent Klingon word would not be the same word for all four meanings.

How is this question a good example? There's no context presented along with the request for translation. We don't know which (if any) of those meanings is the desired one. Without context, I think it's a rather poor example of a problem with the unembellished glosses given in TKD etc.

[ter'eS]

It's also possible that the meanings of ngoy' map pretty closely to the different meanings of "responsible".  They all have the common thread of someone who can or must respond to a duty/task/accusation, etc.  Who's to say the Klingons don't see the same commonality?

Although I'm no fan of wild improvisation in Klingon (as you may have gathered), sometimes I think we tend to be too restrictive in our interpretations.  As in the example of "responsible", the fact that human English-speakers make all these associations does not invalidate the possibility that the Klingons do, too.

[madcat]

I appreciate the dialogue over challenges that can arise in one to one translations and specifically the issues raised with the concept of responsibility I asked about.  I agree with Klythe that words that have multiple meanings may create complexity when learning any language.  I just pulled two Terran language dictionaries off the shelf and would say that the same difficulty would arise if you tried to use these as your only source for learning any language (although the cultural differences are obviously potentially greater when moving away from those who share Terran ancestry). Dictionaries, including TKD, are invaluable but only one piece of language mastery. Understanding the nuances in context, literature, conversation, and experience will help clarify which concepts apply.  I know of at least one quote that uses ngoy'.

vangDI' tlhIngan SuvwI' ngoy' qorDu'Daj;
vanDI' qorDu'Daj ngoy' tlhIngan SuvwI'.
[The family of a Klingon warrior is responsible for his actions, and he is responsible for theirs- quoted in The Klingon Way]

This provides some additional context and ties to the idea of liability raised by Klythe.  The variation on this framing that I use is accountability, which blends the ideas of being answerable and having obligations regarding a matter.  I would say from this, that at the least, ngoy' ties into accountability and obligation, but as Ter'eS notes, it could go further and map to all of the different aspects given the common threads.  Only continued interaction, discussion, and experience will make clear whether or not some aspects of responsibility have different translations in Klingon.  If others know of other sayings, quotes, etc. that use ngoy' this could help further clarify the matter.

To Qunchuy's point, since I've only provided clear evidence for an accountability/obligation translation, whether this meets my needs or not was not clear from my original request.  I had alluded to responsibility and duty together in my first post but was not explicit, and I do believe this sense of obligation/duty is what I was seeking.  For words with multiple or variant meanings, such context and clarity is key to be able to provide assistance and I appreciate the thoughtful challenges provided. 

[Klythe]

How is this question a good example? There's no context presented along with the request for translation. We don't know which (if any) of those meanings is the desired one. Without context, I think it's a rather poor example of a problem with the unembellished glosses given in TKD etc.

     I try not to make assumptions based on mere possibilities, but educated guesses as to probabilites.   I wouldn't say someone is wrong for using responsibility in any of the four meanings in absence of evidence to the contrary.  But I would advise caution, especially when the meanings are as diverse and their may be other ways to phrase it that are more clear.   I would tend to think that if there were synonyms that also had a word in Klingon that those definitions would likely not be part of the cetral meaning.  There is a word for duty, and I think there is also a word for fault...  I'll have to check the dictionary again to be sure and to see about the others.

     Yes language is abstract, and it relies as much on the listener's interpretation as the speaker's expression.  So there is definately some level of flexibility in how we use a language that will still let us be understood.  I've said as much before in the Role of metaphor in language thread.   There are some metaphors that are straight forward enough that a listen will understand while thinking in Klingon, and some that they won't.   I think it's perfectly legitimate to question the assumptions involved in a definition where a Klingon word and an English word are in alternate columns of a table.   Especially when the possible meanings contain near antonyms.   Being responsible (proven worthy of trust) vs being responsible (at fault) are very different meanings Klingons would probably be less likely to confuse.   Is this ambiguity commonly present in other Terran languages, or is it yet another quirk of English?   Is this not a question we should be asking?

[Qunchuy]

Is this ambiguity commonly present in other Terran languages, or is it yet another quirk of English?   Is this not a question we should be asking?

It's a fine question, and I agree that the simple vocabulary glosses in The Klingon Dictionary can be a problem when trying to translate a specific concept. I just didn't think this request was an appropriate peg to hang that comment on, since it doesn't identify a specific concept to be translated.

On the other hand, I do think it's a good example of how translation in general is difficult when one does not provide context or otherwise get specific about what one means. That is a completely separate issue from the quality of the definitions.

[Klythe]

    Right you are.  I should have started a new topic, but I didn't.  I split it now, but it's messy.  I'll probably need to have MadCat duplicate his post in the other thread.

    Yes, my point was intended as a criticsm of the Klingon Dictionary and was not meant as a criticism of the translation effort in the original thread.