Evolution within artificial languages

[Qunchuy]

[Edit -- thread continues from The Klingon Way]

There was a Klingon language klingonaase which was also a mostly wide open canvas.  But that too was replaced by tlhIngan Hol, which while much more filled in, only one man's brushes are allowed on that canvas.

That's an accurate portrayal of the position of most speakers of tlhIngan Hol, but it implies something which is not the case. While we all use those same brushes and the same paint, there is no limitation on the images we create using them.

[Klythe]

    I was refering to the language itself.  Okrand is the only one who is allowed to coin new words or add to the language itself.   If someone invented a new word for Klingonaase no one would howl, cry fowl or tell them they just aren't allowed to do that.  They may or may not wish to use the new words, but there was no controlling authority...  But if you were to try the same thing in tlhingan Hol without getting Okrand's approval, there would be a rukus.   There is no limitations on the images you can create, but there is limitations on how you may chose to express them.

    I'm not saying this is all bad or all good.  A largely fleshed out language with defined rules opens the doors to much more attention and exposure to Klingon culture, but it came with the cost of closing the language to fanish embelishment.  To be fair, tlhingan Hol was hinted at not being the only Klingon language.   But in practice it sucked all the oxygen out of the room and suffocated Klingonaase.  Leaving _The Klingon Language_ written in stone on holy tablets.   This prevents the kind of synergy(as the Abbot calls it(in the previous thread)) that binds a language to the culture of the fans that speak it.  That is the topic layed out in the first post (of the previous thread), the development of Klingon culture outside of official channels.

[edit- clarifying after thread split -klythe]

[Qunchuy]

But if you were to try the same thing in tlhingan Hol without getting Okrand's approval, there would be a rukus.   There is no limitations on the images you can create, but there is limitations on how you may chose to express them.

Is this supposed to be an example of the kind of freedom of expression you're talking about? If so, I think you're calling for the wrong thing. Breaking the rules for poetic or dramatic effect is already possible. Indeed, the word pabHa' mis-follow the rules is used for exactly that sort of thing.

You seem to be equating "limitations" and "stifling creativity". My counterpoint to that is to note that without some sort of guiding structure, creative expression cannot be recognized as being distinct from chaos. I assure you that the limitations of tlhIngan Hol are only grammar and vocabulary -- which are the limitations inherent in any language. The point of language is communication, and if you use words or grammatical forms that aren't known by its speakers, you won't be understood.

[qoSagh]

Adapting to the even changing canon has been one of the most interesting but also most disheartening parts of Klindom. Even with what scraps we have been thrown, there is not enough to make a whole, so fan creativity will always exist and probably always lead to more interesting cultural developments than Paraborg could ever come up with.

The KLI pretty much has filled in, or fallen into, the role of Guardians of the Language, and this is not always a good thing. I respect the work done by their members and was even a member for a short time myself. I actually found that reading their newsletter and seeing how new words came about was helpful culturally. But there are some elements in that organization that feel that all new words INCLUDING PROPER NOUNS must be cleared with them before creation. I have had that debate of the word qaptaQ (The name of my club). meycha (My title within my club) and most interestingly enough qlIStIy (My Klingon line name) and qoSagh (My Klingon given name). All this was because I made the mistake of handing someone a business card for the club, because I thought we had common interests within Klindom to attend each other's events at the same convention. Oddly enough, I have never had such problems with Paraborg, but I likely fly under the proverbial radar with them.

Since the end of DS9 and Enterprise, all we have comming to us are the novels. I think that they will regain the prominence that TFR held in it's hayday, because at the time TFR was all we has aside from FASA. If you weren't a gamer you probably didn't own any FASA books. TFR did not loose steam until the Klingons started becoming interesting on The Next Generation. However I think that this will cause a downturn in Klingon fandom.

It is very easy to know a little bit about Klingons from watching a popular TV show or seeing a blockbuster movie. But it requires a little more dedication to details to read a novel. I really think that the Klingon novels only appeal to existing Klingon fans and do little to bring new fans into the clubs. So while they are a wealth of cultural information, I don't see them effecting the culture we role play for a while, until more people are directed to them by existing Klin members.

[ter'eS]

     The clock hasn't started.  It can't start, because it cannot evolve because speakers are not allowed to change the language.  I've even had to defend coining a metaphor in tlhIngon Hol, even when I used correct grammar and vocabulary.  As long as the language is tightly controlled, it has no potential for evolution.  I think under current copyright law, the clock can start 72 years after Marc Okrand sets off in his Journey to Sto Vo Kor....  Or is it 90...

The issue about not coining new vocabulary, especially, has always seemed to me to be a practical one, namely, how do you disseminate your new word or get any concensus on its use? Consider a natural language.  How do new words get started?  Someone just coins one.  But how do they become accepted?  The community of speakers gives its stamp of approval by its use of the word.  People understand what the new word means only if they themselves are part of that community.

Heck, you're free to coin new words in English, for that matter.  But unless you can get at least a group of friends to recognize it as a valid word, you are just that weird guy who talks gibberish.  In English, new words that are adopted by small groups are slang, unless they are taken up by the larger language community, and then they might become established words.  Fortunately, the English-speaking community is very large: you probably know a lot of English speakers, and mass communication media give you potentially a world-wide audience.

On the other hand, if you coin a new English word that only a few people ever adopt, and if someone in the next neighborhood, town, or continent coins a different new word for the same concept, then the language is on its way to forming dialects, which could eventually diverge to the point where different speakers don't understand each other, even if they believe they are speaking the same language.

Put another way, the final arbiter about new words or new grammar is the language community that uses them, and only a large inter-connected language community can ensure that words and grammar are consistently understood by everyone speaking the language.

With Klingon, there is no large pool of native speakers to be final arbiters of usage.  Even with the Internet, it seems to me that users of Klingon are isolated into individuals or small groups.  If someone coins a new word, how does that word get propagated throughout Klindom?  How does a consistent meaning or usage become established for all users?  And if consistency can't be maintained, how do we stop Klingon from splintering into dialects?  There are few enough of us as it is; we can't afford to cut our ranks even more by splintering into tiny mutually-unintelligible dialect groups.

Ideally, there would be some central committee that would rule on new words or new grammar, and maintain some sort of official book or database setting out what is legitimate Klingon, that every speaker of Klingon could participate in and would accept as authoritative.  The KLI could be such a body, but really can't reach its full potential as long as Paramount (not Okrand!) holds the copyrights to the language.  In the absence of a universally-accepted method of incorporating changes into tlhIngan Hol, the KLI has had to fall back on the position that no-one (except one person, Marc Okrand, since only he has a hope of getting his work legally published and distributed) can make changes, as the only way to protect against splintering into dialects.

[qoSagh]

I do agree with the concept that Dr. Okrand is the only one with hopes of publishing his work...to a point. As we have seen in the past, at some time Paraborg will tire of him and replace him, very likely withsomeone who lacks his qualifications, then tlhIngan Hol will really start to get interesting.

As for the KLI not living up to their potential, I disagree, as they are the only logical group that has access to Dr. Okrand and by extension to Paraborg. What is lacking is a single complete dictionary. Even when the second edition of TKD came out, the new words were in an appendix, not in the main body. Subsequent books (TKW & KGT) have had an improved but slightly different format and have never been issued in list form. Then there is the KLI Hol'qeD (sp?) which has various new words added, as well as other sources. There are several members who have compiled their own new dictionaries, but they are not shared with anyone out of fear of copyright violations. For whatever reason Paraborg has not seen fit to publish a new edition.

With respect to coining a new word there are vastly different categories of words. If say I was to decide a word meant aircar, then that would need to be validated by virtue of others using it in the same context. If however I was to write a story an name several past Emperors that needs no linguistic validation but might need some historic validation. If however I was to simply state my name and spell and pronounce it in accordance with tlhIngan Hol, it needs no other validation than me using it as my name. As much as I would like to make such claims, I doubt my name will have much impact of Klingon culture as a word.

[Klythe]

With Klingon, there is no large pool of native speakers to be final arbiters of usage.  Even with the Internet, it seems to me that users of Klingon are isolated into individuals or small groups.  If someone coins a new word, how does that word get propagated throughout Klindom?  How does a consistent meaning or usage become established for all users?  And if consistency can't be maintained, how do we stop Klingon from splintering into dialects?  There are few enough of us as it is; we can't afford to cut our ranks even more by splintering into tiny mutually-unintelligible dialect groups.

     You don't need a large group of speakers, to get a newly coined word 'canonized' in a natural language, you just need any size portion of the speakers of the language to continue to have a use for it.   "Grok" as a verb meaning roughly completely understand and most likely simpathize with as well, doesn't have wide usage in English, but a certain small slice of English speakers uses it often enough to keep it alive and are willing to explain what the mean by it and teach it to anyone who cares to learn.  Just like borrowing words from other languages there is a full continuum of levels of acceptedness of a newly coined word in a language.  Only in closed (aka planned or controlled) languages is there a binary, "offical" and "not official" distinction.

     The problem with closed languages(most are artificial like Klingon, but some natural languages are becoming more closed, most notably French) is they don't allow for these natural language mechanisms to let the language adapt to the speakers.  These closed languages are actively(or less than actively) maintained by one person or a small committee, who make the decisions for how people should use the language.  That's all I'm saying that the feedback mechanisms are not there.  I'm not blaming the KLI or Okrand.   Though I understand there may be some members of the KLI who from time to time are overly aggressive and decide that their job is to enforce proper language usage instead of encouraging more language use and better language use.  I know this is not the view of the KLI as a whole, but it tends to exaserbate the problems of the closed language and prevents the language from adapting to the culture of those who place themselves on the cutural fronteers, by exploring and expanding Klingon culture using their own creativity.

     Surely you don't distrust your fellow speakers that much, to think they would splinter the language so much as to make it mutually unintelligable.  There are canonical dialects presented in TKW.  Since Klingon is a second language for everyone, it is already splintered into dialects another way.  Regular readers of the HolQeD, the KLI's quarterly journal, know that German-speaking Klingons use ghaj differently than American-speaking Klingons and that this is the tip of an unexplored iceberg of 1st language bias filling in where vocabulary is given as word for word translations rather than as a a Klingon child would learn it, by listening to repeated examples of usage by actual speakers.

     I agree with the first part of Qunchuy's statement below.  The point of language is communication, which is a two part process, the listener and the speaker.  Both want to agree on the meanings to achieve communication.  Natural language users who remain in communications with each other do not break down their lanugage into mutually unintelligible dialects, though mutually intelligible dialects do form.

The point of language is communication, and if you use words or grammatical forms that aren't known by its speakers, you won't be understood.

     Explain please how the works of Dr. Suess and The Jabberwocky by Lewis Carrol are still understood when they were able to invent vocabulary at a whim.  Explain how Shakespeare and to a lesser extent Chaucer are still understandable and enjoyable even though their grammar is much different to speakers of Modern English.   There is a spectrum of difference where you can expand the audiences understanding and thinking and still be perfectly understood. 

Since the end of DS9 and Enterprise, all we have comming to us are the novels. I think that they will regain the prominence that TFR held in it's hayday, because at the time TFR was all we has aside from FASA. If you weren't a gamer you probably didn't own any FASA books. TFR did not loose steam until the Klingons started becoming interesting on The Next Generation. However I think that this will cause a downturn in Klingon fandom.

     Actually, I'm mostly concerned about the authors than your average fan RPGer.   Would TFR have been written the way it was if he had to get permission from Okrand and Paramount/Viacom/CBS in order to coin the words he did?   Right now the Klingon author I hear most about is Keith R.A. Dicandido (aka KRAD).  KRAD annoys me because his IKS Gorkon series pulls in just about every named canon Klingon in TNG and beyond.  Not only does this strain credulity it also prevents other authors from expanding these characters.

[netlhQIn]

American Sign Language is fairly specific as far as what signs mean what.  However, almost without exception, families end up having their own tailor-made signs, kind of like a "house vocabulary."  It's entirely possible that your club could have its own Klingon words that would mimic this and be essentially "house words."  

I know that doesn't really add much to the conversation at hand, but it's something I figured I'd toss in.

[ter'eS]

     Surely you don't distrust your fellow speakers that much, to think they would splinter the language so much as to make it mutually unintelligable. 

Ha! It's already happened.  Back in the early 90's there was another tlhIngan Hol group, the Interstellar Language Group, that took a much looser view of coining new words or grammar.  I've got a copy of the New Testament by them, and parts are very hard to figure out; in fact, they can be figured out in some cases only because it's the New Testament and I already know the story. 

     Explain please how the works of Dr. Suess and The Jabberwocky by Lewis Carrol are still understood when they were able to invent vocabulary at a whim.  Explain how Shakespeare and to a lesser extent Chaucer are still understandable and enjoyable even though their grammar is much different to speakers of Modern English.   There is a spectrum of difference where you can expand the audiences understanding and thinking and still be perfectly understood. 

If anything, these examples prove my point.  Seuss's new words are overwhelmingly proper names, and don't need to make any sense beyond that.  Lewis Carrol actually defines all his new words in Jabberwocky later in the same book, or we wouldn't be able to follow them.  Modern English is a simplification of the language of Shakespeare and Chaucer, so we can recognize the kinship (although I think you're being optimistic about how understandable they are to people on first encounter); but archaic words still need to be explained to the average new reader.

Actually, annotations or a glossary would be a great idea for introducing new words: put an explanation of your new words together with your use of them.  Unfortunately, this only works with text, not everyday, casual, spoken usage.

[Klythe]

Ha! It's already happened.  Back in the early 90's there was another tlhIngan Hol group, the Interstellar Language Group, that took a much looser view of coining new words or grammar.  I've got a copy of the New Testament by them, and parts are very hard to figure out; in fact, they can be figured out in some cases only because it's the New Testament and I already know the story. 

      Now it's my turn to say, "If anything, this example proves my point. "  An organized group actively tried to splinter the language in two and failed.    I ask because I don't know, did the group fail in your opinion, because of hounding and perhaps legal pressure (or threats there of) from official sources, or did die naturally, due to failing to capture as many new minds as speakers lose interest in the new dialect.  Perhaps a bunch of them just figured out that no one outside their group cared for a mutaully unintelligible dialect?   If it failed because of natural reasons, such as failing to win hearts and minds of it's own accord, it is evidence as to how hard it is to change a language without controlling it.   If it failed because of official intervention, it shows how not even an organized effort from outside of the official keepers of the language can evolve the language.

If anything, these examples prove my point.  Seuss's new words are overwhelmingly proper names, and don't need to make any sense beyond that. 

     
    Proper Nouns are names of individual unique entities, while names of classes of things are not.  Most of his words were in my own experience names for types of strange creatures, which admittedly accompany the words, they themselves becoming the definitions for the word.  But it does without saying that when you are introducing a new word, you will need to define it in some way, from context or explicitly.  That is not a disqualification for coining a new word.

    Let's look at words that Ford coined.  khest- from context a casual curse.  Klin- A complex concept, mostly hinted at.  In a non Trek book called "Growing Up Weightless", he defines "Scamble" as a type of movement that can only be performed at low gravity and only with practice, leaning forward as far as you can to lower your center of gravity and running, so your limbs push more forward than upward.   Creating new words and new ideas is a big way of advancing and evolving a language that is not reasonably available in a planned controlled language.

[Qunchuy]

An organized group actively tried to splinter the language in two and failed.    I ask because I don't know, did the group fail in your opinion, because of hounding and perhaps legal pressure (or threats there of) from official sources, or did die naturally, due to failing to capture as many new minds as speakers lose interest in the new dialect.

It seems to me that the ILS "failed" because the goal of its leader was to produce as much text as possible for people to buy. Based on what I saw of it, quality was obviously not as important as quantity. The passages I read from Good News for the Warrior Race (an adaptation of the New Testament of the Christian Bible) were totally opaque in Klingon, and only made sense once they were translated into English and read idiomatically. He consistently treated Klingon as a code for English, which totally put off anyone trying to treat it as an actual language.

The "new dialect" was essentially Klingon with names of Star Trek entities replaced with oblique references, and with wild extrapolation of words' meanings based on accidental English synonyms. I recall a paragraph from an early ILS newsletter "explaining" that the correct translation of tlhIngan Hol is Alien Language, which makes no sense. The other example that sticks with me is the insistence of the ILS's leader that the verb pong name, call can be used to refer to making a telephone call.

[Klythe]

    Sounds sufficiently devoid of merit.  I dare say it rightly died on it's own lack of merits and yet also sufficiently derivative that even if the Klingon language community had embraced it they would have little legal defence against a copywrite infringement lawsuit..   I reckon we can trust that the Klingon language community overall has the discernment ans sense to soft crap from the real stuff, even if they themselves don't know how to produce non-crap themselves.

    There are other forms of creativity a planned, controlled language losses out on.  Natural languages tend to simplify and streamline awkward, repetitive or otherwise difficult combinations of sounds.  Might a cherished pet catlike organism called a vIghro be affectionately referred to as a vIghroy instead of the (presumed) proper vIghro'oy?   How do you pronounce the double glottal stop in toywI''a'.    How can you stop twice without restarting in between?   The KLI does the best they can with these sorts of issues, but untimately must rely on precident alone, whereas in an open language, there would be some confusion at first as speakers found what was best for themselves individually, but slowly a consensus would form.  The planned language is much more efficient in resolving this issues quickly, but it may not come to the same descision as the full population of speakers...   In this case though, since the most fluent speakers tend to be part of the KLI it's s moot point.  But one wrth considering while we are on the topic of evolution of languages (and cultures)


      Normally I would have considered this a flaw in constructed language as a whole, but at least one artifical language that I know of (lojban)has plans, once the language is reasonably free of major issues and more stable, of backing off releasing the language into the wild and opening it up to see what independent speakers do to the language. 

      I have so far avoided actually calling for any change.  It was not my intent to spark a revolution to overthrow the powers that be and claim tlhIngan Hol for the fans.   tlhIngan Hol is good for it's purpose which is to give the impression of a consistent natural and very alien language to add depth and believability to Canonically produced Star Trek shows and films.    Ideally, if I had my druthers, CBS, or whoever owns Star Trek at and given point in time, would acknowledge that there is another Klingon language that is or was recently widely used in the empire, and that it is klingonaase or if you prefer Korax's klingoni, perhaps once or twice have a Klingon say something in it, just to show it really is there.  Then the fan authors can have their own playpen, and still be part of the same universe.   Then there would be a possibility for a language to evolve with the culture of the fans who embrace a Klingon lifestyle on some way or another, and vice versa.

[ter'eS]

I guess my real reservations about fans extending the grammar or vocabulary of tlhIngan Hol is the issue of quality control.  Klingon has its own rules of phonology, and one would hope that new Klingon words would follow those rules.  Unfortunately, many casual fans don't actually know those rules, judging by the names they give themselves, with odd consonant clusters and glottal stops (') thrown in willy-nilly.  I for one would like to see new words based on combining old words, or extending the meanings of existing words (I've often dreamed, for example, that pu' 'phaser' originally meant 'lightning').  But not even Marc Okrand mines the existing vocabulary for the rare new words he gives us, but just makes up new ones (often terrible puns).

In terms of grammar, every language has its own internal logic, and one would hope that new Klingon grammar would follow the logic of the rest of Klingon.  But it takes some time and skill with any language to become comfortable with its internal logic.  I wonder how many fans would take the time to get really comfortable with existing Klingon grammar before coining new grammatical forms to "fix" some perceived problem that might not even be a problem to a more experienced speaker.  Some people have wishlists of new grammar they'd like Marc Okrand to give us, but I hope he never gets to those lists, because I think even he has lost his sense of the inner logic of Klingon, and I'm afraid any new grammar he gave us would just be extrapolations from English and not in the real spirit of Klingon.

In a natural language community, general concensus would weed out failed attempts at new words or grammar, but Klingon has no such community.  It also seems to attract strong personalities, who tend not to listen to the voice of concensus.  I've seen too many websites with failed Klingon text almost defiantly presented to have much hope that Klingon would remain Klingon if its evolution was open to general input.

[taurks]

Not to drive off-topic, but I have never understood what has been so copyrightable about Klingon. Probably just the term "Klingon" itself, because Paraborg probably has it reserved/trademarked, but I find it hard to believe that anyone could copyright a whole language, all the way down to the suffixes and OVS word order. Of course, you wouldn't want to copy large parts out of TKD word-for-word because that would definitely be illegal. But what's stopping the KLI from changing Klingon's name by one letter, calling it a new language, and then issuing their own guide to the new "language" (which happens to have the same grammatical structures but explained in a different way than in TKD or KGT) ?

Now onto the topic in general: As far as I'm concerned, Klingon hasn't evolved at all. It's still the same as it was in TKD, with maybe 300-400 or so more words. It is a legitimate language (you can say many things in it) but the range of expression is severely limited compared to a "real" language. Profound things like "Today is a good day to die" can be said in Klingon, but the everyday "I play the piano" misses the words "play"*  and "piano". The best you can do is some long, drawn-out description like "I use the large square thing in order to make sound". Anyone who tries to use Klingon for everyday situations basically has to do gymnastics through the small vocabulary to make themselves understood. Didn't d'Armand Speers find this out when he was teaching his son how to speak it? So the number of words is a problem when dealing with most things outside of Star Trek...

Neither has anyone dared to touch Klingon's grammar. Instead the community refers to interviews with Okrand or random HolQeD articles to define the exactly-correct way to use the few key elements of Klingon grammar that we can manipulate. Evolution would involve some breaking from the rules, but we jatlhwI'pu' wouldn't even use -ghach unless another suffix came before it, per an interview with Okrand:

{­ghach} is at least at first blush restricted to a position
    following a verb suffix of another type which means 1 through 8
    because it's a nine.

The only way I think that Klingon can start evolving into a living, more usable language is if we allow it to. Right now we don't, because Klingon speakers in general sacrifice language flexibility for canonical correctness. I think the language is well enough defined by now that if we finally relax the rules, we won't see mass chaos but productive growth. Perhaps the KLI can become more of a guiding foce for this new growth so that the language doesn't splinter into dialects - the creation of a forum on the KLI site would be a great idea for Hol HaqwI'pu' (language surgeons) to gather and share their new ideas / creations, since most of us defer to the KLI anyway.

In any case, I stick with my point: I don't see any evolution per se right now.

*(Quj means play a game and reH just means play; neither refer to music)

[Jon]

What is lacking is a single complete dictionary.

Well this one comes close: Klingonska Akademien, though there are some omissions and new words do not seem to be added.

And there is the project that I'm working on: tlhIngan Hol wiki dictionary; which is very much a work in progress. It is intended to be a complete reference to thlIngan Hol. Hopefully it is not one of the ones with "failed Klingon text". I'm trying to stick to canon as much as possible, though some of my colleagues have deviated somewhat - I'm gradually correcting their neologisms and mistakes.



[Edit -- subject split -- thread continues in Differing alphabets for use with thlIngan Hol]

[Qunchuy]

But what's stopping the KLI from changing Klingon's name by one letter, calling it a new language, and then issuing their own guide to the new "language" (which happens to have the same grammatical structures but explained in a different way than in TKD or KGT) ?

Aside from lack of time on the part of those who are quailfied, the main thing stopping the Klingon Language Institute from doing that is the fact that it is unnecessary for the KLI to change the name before publishing such a guide. The KLI has a bona fide license to use the name Klingon(tm) in connection with the study and promotion of the language. (As it turns out, there is already a KLI-produced guide to Klingon in the works, though the author is busy addressing real life and progress is slow.)

Now onto the topic in general: As far as I'm concerned, Klingon hasn't evolved at all. It's still the same as it was in TKD, with maybe 300-400 or so more words.

On the contrary, Klingon has progressed significantly since The Klingon Dictionary was published in 1985. There is new grammar (e.g. use of the topic suffix -'e' to disambiguate the head noun of a relative clause, atypical word order in ritual toasts, etc.) and a huge amount of established usage (similes, -vaD-marking in "ditransitive" sentences, body-part plurals for inanimate objects, etc.).

It is a legitimate language (you can say many things in it) but the range of expression is severely limited compared to a "real" language. Profound things like "Today is a good day to die" can be said in Klingon, but the everyday "I play the piano" misses the words "play"*  and "piano". The best you can do is some long, drawn-out description like "I use the large square thing in order to make sound".

*(Quj means play a game and reH just means play; neither refer to music)

piano vIchu' I play the piano.

The verb chu' activate also refers to using a QoQ jan musical instrument. I'll grant that Klingon lacks a word meaning "piano" if you will grant that English lacks one too. If you insist on a strictly Klingon term, I ame confident that any Klingon-speaking piano player would understand the neologism tamchuS.

Anyone who tries to use Klingon for everyday situations basically has to do gymnastics through the small vocabulary to make themselves understood. Didn't d'Armand Speers find this out when he was teaching his son how to speak it? So the number of words is a problem when dealing with most things outside of Star Trek...

You overestimate the magnitude of the problem. It's extremely difficult to discuss technical subjects like lost-foam casting of automotive transmissions, but everyday situations are simply not a problem. At qep'a', Klingon conversations range across wide swaths of topics, and Star Trek discussions are rare.

The only way I think that Klingon can start evolving into a living, more usable language is if we allow it to.

I find Klingon perfectly usable. Why do you think it needs to be "more" usable?

[taurks]

I know that the KLI had a license to use the term Klingon and promote the language, but this does them little good above the surface. Look at d'Armand Speer's page where he lists the vocab for each certification level. He can only give the english, not the Klingon words due to copyright - not very much freedom "in connection with the study and promotion of the language" ...

On the contrary, Klingon has progressed significantly since The Klingon Dictionary was published in 1985. There is new grammar (e.g. use of the topic suffix -'e' to disambiguate the head noun of a relative clause, atypical word order in ritual toasts, etc.) and a huge amount of established usage (similes, -vaD-marking in "ditransitive" sentences, body-part plurals for inanimate objects, etc.).

Sorry I should've specified the second edition of the dictionary.
In any case, fair enough I'll accept the answer here 

If you insist on a strictly Klingon term, I ame confident that any Klingon-speaking piano player would understand the neologism tamchuS.

I looked up tam (be quiet) and chuS (be noisy). So you call a piano a quiet-noisy? Might as well just call it a Dochvam and point to it.

You overestimate the magnitude of the problem. It's extremely difficult to discuss technical subjects like lost-foam casting of automotive transmissions, but everyday situations are simply not a problem. At qep'a', Klingon conversations range across wide swaths of topics, and Star Trek discussions are rare.

I still feel that Klingon's lexicon is not yet ready for everyday situations. There are a ton of regular objects around me right now that don't have Klingon terms (folder, fork, pencil) - not to mention bigger things (shops, bank, park, bridge). Sure you can convey each thing with long descriptions (I've said "place which holds money" for "bank" before) but at some point, scraping your mind for whatever words there are gets annoying. Speakers of Toki Pona (with 120 words) have to do the same thing.

I find Klingon perfectly usable. Why do you think it needs to be "more" usable?

Because even if it is usable, it still has many limits. 2000-2500 words is not a large enough mass for a language to be used everyday (doesn't a chinese person need to know at least 3000 characters to read the morning paper?).

[Qunchuy]

I looked up tam (be quiet) and chuS (be noisy). So you call a piano a quiet-noisy?

I still am fully confident that a Klingon-speaking piano player would understand the reference without difficulty. If you had to look up the words, you are not a Klingon speaker. If you do not recognize the term, you are not a piano player. The full name of the instrument is pianoforte.

I still feel that Klingon's lexicon is not yet ready for everyday situations. There are a ton of regular objects around me right now that don't have Klingon terms (folder, fork, pencil) - not to mention bigger things (shops, bank, park, bridge).

Your feeling does not adequately reflect reality.

folder: If you mean something to keep papers together, nav polwI' paper keeper should be fine. If you mean something to protect papers, nav vaH paper sheath seems right.
fork: We do have the term puq chonnaQ (literally child's hunting spear) for this.
pencil: ghItlhwI' mark-maker, stylus is a good concise term.
shop: Suy merchant usually suffices. If you need to refer to the building, just say Suy qach merchant's building.
bank: Since you listed it with "bigger things" you probably mean Huch qach money building. You can get more specific with Huch nojwI' money lender or Huch polwI' money keeper or Huch QanwI' money protector.
park: I don't know what aspect of "park" you intend to express. Does reHmeH yotlh play field capture what you had in mind?
bridge: You need to be more specific about what kind of bridge you mean. The first thing that comes to mind is bIQ Dung He above water route.

Sure you can convey each thing with long descriptions (I've said "place which holds money" for "bank" before) but at some point, scraping your mind for whatever words there are gets annoying. Speakers of Toki Pona (with 120 words) have to do the same thing.

You're likely spoiled by your experience with the unusually rich English vocabulary, expecting to be able to use a simple term for what you think of as a single simple concept. I again assure you that using only Klingon in everyday situations is just not a problem. You just need to recognize that speaking in Klingon is not the same thing as thinking in English and translating into Klingon. When I get myself into "Klingon mode" among other fluent speakers, casting for vocabulary is only annoying when the topics drift into technical areas like aircraft power plants or psycholinguistics.

2000-2500 words is not a large enough mass for a language to be used everyday (doesn't a chinese person need to know at least 3000 characters to read the morning paper?).

My experience is that the existing vocabulary of Klingon is quite adequate for an entire day's activities. I suggest that experience trumps feelings.

[taurks]

I'll take your word for it...

[SoplaHtaHwI']

American Sign Language is fairly specific as far as what signs mean what.  However, almost without exception, families end up having their own tailor-made signs, kind of like a "house vocabulary."  It's entirely possible that your club could have its own Klingon words that would mimic this and be essentially "house words." 

I know that doesn't really add much to the conversation at hand, but it's something I figured I'd toss in.

A good example of this in real Klindom life is the Misheard {QI'lop} by the early Khemorex-Klinzhai members, which resulted in the word Qetlop, which has now been the title of the twice-yearly gathering of all Khemorex members... Qetlop would in effect be such a "House word", If I am not mistaken.

[kroki]

Hi there,

Although I am quite new to matters of thlIngan Hol and I have to wait for my birthday next week to get TKD from my wife I was wondering how many of the 2205 possible words are already in official, canonical use? Ofcourse I mean words consisting of a consonant, a vowel and a consonant. With 21 consonants and 5 vowels you get 2205 three-letter combinations:
'I'
QIQ
'Iy
etcetera
One would think that about 2000 words together with some rules and pre- and suffixes would be sufficient for everyday use, whether you are on Earth, in the Bird of Prey giving orders to a technician or fighting a creepy unknown race in the Delta quadrant (I'm not very well versed in Star Trek, please correct me if I say stupid things).

Ofcourse the two letter prefixes and suffixes will add to that: another 210 pre- and suffixes, that is if they follow the 1 consonant 1 vowel rule.

While I am typing anyway I might as well ask if the Klingon speakers ever get confused in the cases of words ending on either
-gh or -q
is this difference audible enough?
Likewise for b and p and for ch and j
Maybe the problem does not arise, but in other languages this sort of problem often does occur.
For instance: thlob is "to ask", what if thlop would mean "to give an order"
I can imagine the authorities of the language, mr. Okrand?, will check to see if such an ambiguity in sound will occur.

That is all for now.

Kroki

[ter'eS]

It would probably be best if you waited to get your copy of the Klingon Dictionary before asking too many questions about vocabulary, but I'll jump in anyway...

Hi there,

Although I am quite new to matters of thlIngan Hol and I have to wait for my birthday next week to get TKD from my wife I was wondering how many of the 2205 possible words are already in official, canonical use? Ofcourse I mean words consisting of a consonant, a vowel and a consonant. With 21 consonants and 5 vowels you get 2205 three-letter combinations:
'I'
QIQ
'Iy
etcetera
One would think that about 2000 words together with some rules and pre- and suffixes would be sufficient for everyday use, whether you are on Earth, in the Bird of Prey giving orders to a technician or fighting a creepy unknown race in the Delta quadrant (I'm not very well versed in Star Trek, please correct me if I say stupid things).

Ofcourse the two letter prefixes and suffixes will add to that: another 210 pre- and suffixes, that is if they follow the 1 consonant 1 vowel rule.

Actually, there are lots of Klingon words that violate the CVC structure, or have 2 or more syllables, and many of the possible CVC compounds aren't used (or haven't been seen yet).  Nevertheless, if I remember correctly, there are about 2300 canon Klingon words.  Whether that's "enough" for a usable language is the subject of much debate.  Considering that many of the words are names for Klingon or other extra-terrestrial animals, not every exsiting word is going to be of equal utility.

While I am typing anyway I might as well ask if the Klingon speakers ever get confused in the cases of words ending on either
-gh or -q
is this difference audible enough?
Likewise for b and p and for ch and j
Maybe the problem does not arise, but in other languages this sort of problem often does occur.
For instance: thlob is "to ask", what if thlop would mean "to give an order"
I can imagine the authorities of the language, mr. Okrand?, will check to see if such an ambiguity in sound will occur.

You forget the role of context in resolving ambiguity.  Besides, ambiguity in language is a common feature.  For example, in English "can" and "can't" sound so much alike in normal rapid speech that we often have to stop to clarify our meaning, yet these words are not likely to change any time soon.  And since Klingon is overwhelmingly a written language and not a spoken one, there is usually no ambiguity at all.

[kroki]

Thank you for your response, ter'eS. Of course ambiguity in language is very usefull for both jokes and poetry.
By the way, I enjoyed your Lego movies very much! What a work that must have been! I keep the files to listen to the pronunciation.

But back to the discussion of Language Evolution and sounds:
In non-artificial languages words adapt to real speach which means for instance that a word that is made up of the syllables "an" and "po" will turn into "ampo" because it is more natural to pronounce an m before a p than an n.
In Klingon words there is the possibility of having two apostrophes ' following eachother which will be quite awkward to pronounce in fluent speech.

I understand the difficulty of definining new words in an artificial language because back in 1982 I constructed my own language. My main design principle was that the language was to be expressed in musical notes rather than spoken by mouth. All (main) nouns and verbs were to be played (whistled, sung or whatever way to express musical notes) in four notes, all within the octave. I calculated that there are about 7854 possible "words" this way. Additionally, of course, I still have about 600 three-note words and some two-note words as well.
These figures are valid if every single note has the same length (duration) and loudness.
Varying length and loudness can add to the meaning of the basic words.
Anyway, after having defined the musical basis I started defining groups of concepts and within these groups actual words.
The part that really demanded much of my imagination and my own understanding of language was defining in a logical and structured way the short words that are neither verbs, nouns, adjectives or pronouns:  how, of, because, if, and such concepts.

Although I never really finished it I envisaged that when I would have and some people would like to learn and use it, other concepts would be created by those that can whistle (it is kind of awkward to carry your piano with you just to talk to others)  to communicate.
By the way, am I making any sense at all to those of you who read this?
If I am way off topic, please tell me also.

Kroki

[Qunchuy]

In non-artificial languages words adapt to real speach which means for instance that a word that is made up of the syllables "an" and "po" will turn into "ampo" because it is more natural to pronounce an m before a p than an n.

We do have hints that such does happen in Klingon. vulqan Vulcan (the planet) and ngan inhabitant come together to form vulqangan Vulcan (the species). Similarly with 'orghen Organia.

In Klingon words there is the possibility of having two apostrophes ' following eachother which will be quite awkward to pronounce in fluent speech.

How does a doubled ("geminate") ' differ from a doubled t or p? I don't find a word like yu''egh interrogate oneself to be particularly awkward. I pronounce it and yu'egh wave differently.

I understand the difficulty of definining new words in an artificial language because back in 1982 I constructed my own language. My main design principle was that the language was to be expressed in musical notes rather than spoken by mouth. All (main) nouns and verbs were to be played (whistled, sung or whatever way to express musical notes) in four notes, all within the octave...

Something like a simplified version of Solresol, then?

[kroki]

Hello Qunchuy,

I only learned about Solresol after I searched the Internet for artificial languages this year. Back in 1982 I did not have access to Internet as we know it since Mosaic. I still do not know if my own music language looks anything like Solresol.  I never looked into it, I have just seen it mentioned alongside Esperanto, Elvish (Quenya?) and such.
I did take an interest in Esperanto, but the more I learned about it, the less of a challenge it seemed to be to actually learn it. Klingon is much more of a challenge and more fun, and more pointless too in terms of usefullness. In my case it is really because of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, roughly saying that your mental capabilities are determined by the language you speak, that I want to learn Klingon. Anyway, this is also mentioned on the Wikipedia page on the Klingon language, though it is not that webpage that inspired me. There are several other languages I know at something about in terms of words, grammar and sound, and Klingon seems to me really something else.

By the way, what does a supernatural sneeze sound like? Or does Qunchuy mean something different?
I'm into this, learning Klingon, only two weeks, but chuy, sneeze, is a word that is very easy to remember, just like bur, hiccup.
tuS, cough on the other hand sounds less natural. One would expect a word like Qogh or ghogh.

Thanks for the examples.

Signing off...