Baldric or sash?

[Klythe]

     Baldric is a term that comes from medieval French that refers to a belt or sash worn over the shoulder to support the weight of a  weapon, such as a sword (or according to Webster's a bugle).  I didn't see Worf's sash supporting anything, so I'm not sure it could properly be called a baldric.   More importantly, however it doesn't have anything to do with what the Klingons would call it. 

    I just wanted to clear that up to reduce future confusion.  I really have no real reason to object to it being called a baldric, but it isn't a Klingon word.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

     Baldric is a term that comes from medieval French that refers to a belt or sash worn over the shoulder to support the weight of a  weapon, such as a sword (or according to Webster's a bugle).  I didn't see Worf's sash supporting anything, so I'm not sure it could properly be called a baldric.   More importantly, however it doesn't have anything to do with what the Klingons would call it. 

    I just wanted to clear that up to reduce future confusion.  I really have no real reason to object to it being called a baldric, but it isn't a Klingon word.

Not bothered by convention or in-depth knowledge of either Real-life or Klingon history, I can only assume that the Klingon sash might have developed out of the baldric, which, after the advent and popularity of the betleH bat'leth, probably did become redundant...  All speculation, of course...

As far as tlhIngan Hol (the Klingon language) goes, both are called a Ha'quj. This would support my speculations

[Kesvirit]

[Split off from the The Star Trek Encyclopedia thread]

[soup borg:  ...and it turns out there's a lot of Klingon stuff that I didn't know, like the sash is called a 'baldric' in ST9.

No, a baldrick is an ignorant and filthy straave of unhealthy habits and preoccupations.

What?
Oh.
Never mind.

Klythe:   Baldric is a term that comes from medieval French that refers to a belt or sash worn over the shoulder to support the weight of a  weapon, such as a sword (or according to Webster's a bugle).  I didn't see Worf's sash supporting anything, so I'm not sure it could properly be called a baldric.   More importantly, however it doesn't have anything to do with what the Klingons would call it. 

    I just wanted to clear that up to reduce future confusion.  I really have no real reason to object to it being called a baldric, but it isn't a Klingon word.

SoplaHtaHwI’:  Not bothered by convention or in-depth knowledge of either Real-life or Klingon history...

But being bothered makes for better arguments! Argument is but another form of warfare in which we all participate in a quest for control over our enemies and ourselves. Sometimes just seeing the weapons of knowledge and evidence laid out before them can cause an enemy to retreat.

Though they may be retreating only to refresh and regroup.... It is vital to be constantly adding to one’s arsenal, and to keep one’s skills as well-honed as one’s weapons.

As far as tlhIngan Hol (the Klingon language) goes, both are called a Ha'quj. This would support my speculations.

From the Online Etymology Dictionary at Dictionary.com, a compilation site:
baldric -- c.1300, "belt worn over the shoulder," from O.Fr. baldre, which is probably from L. balteus "belt," perhaps infl. by M.H.G. balderich.
sash -- (1)  "strip of cloth," 1599, "strip of cloth twisted into a turban," from Arabic shash "muslin cloth." Meaning "strip of cloth worn about the waist or over the shoulder" first recorded 1681.

Hundreds of years and thousands of miles later, the two terms converge in the clusterf@#k that poses as the English language. KGT gives {Ha’quj} “baldric, sash (n).”  One can only guess at Okrand’s etymological justification for this.

I suspect that the sash came first. The same length of fabric both held early garments on the wearer and served as a convenient place to hold or attach such tools as one would need. The baldric came later as metallurgy was developed. Metal tools and weapons are much heavier than those made from organic sources such as wood and bone. Wearing them attached to the body adds enough extra weight to interfere with the wearer’s balance and range of motion. The baldric was added to more evenly distribute the extra weight on the body.

Klythe:  I didn't see Worf's sash supporting anything, so I'm not sure it could properly be called a baldric.

Agreed. Worf’s sash is purely decorative, a sartorial display with no practical applications. I suppose one could argue the value of such decoration as social signifier and whatnot, and therefore has “practical applications” as well. But ultimately the sash supports nothing but his ego, and does not qualify as a baldric.

SoplaHtaHwI’:  ...I can only assume that the Klingon sash might have developed out of the baldric, which, after the advent and popularity of the betleH bat'leth, probably did become redundant...  All speculation, of course...

I do not see any connection between either the sash or baldric and the betleH. The betleH is so large that it must be held and carried in the hands; it cannot be holstered and worn on the body. Will the one elaborate?

[soup_borg]

I do not see any connection between either the sash or baldric and the betleH. The betleH is so large that it must be held and carried in the hands; it cannot be holstered and worn on the body. Will the one elaborate?

Are you sure about this?  I could swear that Korok, a Klingon assimilated by the Borg, had a betleH worn on his back in the VOY ep "Unimatrix Zero, Part 2".

[SoplaHtaHwI']

I do not see any connection between either the sash or baldric and the betleH. The betleH is so large that it must be held and carried in the hands; it cannot be holstered and worn on the body. Will the one elaborate?

Are you sure about this?  I could swear that Korok, a Klingon assimilated by the Borg, had a betleH worn on his back in the VOY ep "Unimatrix Zero, Part 2".

I was just about to comment something among those lines, had I found the "reply" button at that time 8-)

I was merely saying that I suspect the sash must have evolved from the baldric, since the baldric needed no longer to support any sword {'etlh} since the betleH.

a holster for the betleH could be imagined on one's back, as far as  my knowledge of biology/the human/Klingon anatomy reaches...

[Klythe]

    How does a Baldric evolve into a sash when it most likely evolved from a sash?  Sounds more like de-evolution to me.   More likely I think, is that sashes never became completely extinct and have instead enjoyed a population resurgence.  I suspect they are calling it a baldic because they either don't know or care about the distinction or deliberately wanted it to sound cooler than it is.  A baldric is much more militaristic item, where as sashes are more often worn at fancy dress-up parties... 

    I don't see at all way the betletlh would make a baldric obsolete.  A ring or a 'frog' for a meqletlh curved sword, a scabbard for a Daqtagh dagger, or a holster for a disruptor or phaser in Worf's case, would all still be very useful for a Klingon warrior as we have seen Klingons wielding these some weapons 1500 years after the first batletlh was famously said to have been forged.

    To be fair it isn't made out of muslin or other simple and light cloths, or at least is made to give that impression. 

[qoSagh]

When I first started in klindom, I was introduced to this garment as an "Honor Sash". In some clubs it was reserved for officers and not for enlisted. The first ones we saw, of course being made of Gold metallic cloth in TOS, then we jump ahead to TNG, and Worf was wearing the TOS type, then switched to the more chain mail looking one. In STIII and STIV we saw an very ornate one being worn by the Klingon Ambassador. There was a very popular style among fans which I believe came from pictures in the FASA books, that was a metallic colored vinyl with mesh over them. Until reading this threat (and it's parent thread) I had never heard anyone refer to them as a baldric (or a baldrick, but that would just make it smell bad anyway).

If I had to come up with a Klingon baldric, I would say the chain on the disruptor holsters is a better equivalent, and perhaps both of these are considered the same type of garment/accessory to the Klingons. Maybe there needs to be a qualifier like Holster [baldric] or Honor [sash] that more completely describes the item. I still call mine an Honor Sash, but that is because I don't pay much head to the Star Trek Encyclopedia and it's ever changing wheel of canon.

There was a time when medals and decorations were worn on these sashes, but that seems to have stopped around the time of TNG. So now they are even more vestigial than before. An interesting aside is that within the qaptaQ all members may wear these, not just leadership. It is seen that to deny one such a visible outward symbol of honor would be to deny the ones honor, and that is never something done lightly by a Klingon.

[Hod Qhi]

I had theses idea that they had to do with leadership of a house or maybe ship leadership. they are not rare in Canon sourse but not common enough to be identified easily. Worf mentions that Since there no House of Mogh in the Empire he doesn't wear the sash even though the House of Mogh Symbol is still on his sleeve. Of course this is also countered by the fact General Martok no wearing one.