"Klingonizing" words

[soup_borg]

Interesting, let me cut and paste these replies so I can use them later.   Well, let's try to translate something else...

A few weeks ago I checked out the Klingon Language Institute site and saw that in tlhIngan Gowron is pronounced/written ghawran.  Also, House of Worf is war'Iv tuq.

Can anyone 'klingonize' the following names: Saleel, Do'Iteq, Ba'Kor, K'Val, Ghen?   Would House of Do'Iteq be do’Iteq tuq?

When I write a post for my rpg I like to write 'Klingon stuff' as authentic as possible.  For example, I no longer write targ but rather targh.


[Edit -- fixed BBC]

[qurgh_]

Interesting, let me cut and paste these replies so I can use them later.   Well, let's try to translate something else...

A few weeks ago I checked out the Klingon Language Institute site and saw that in tlhIngan Gowron is pronounced/written ghawran.  Also, House of Worf is [b]war'Iv tuq[/b].

Can anyone 'klingonize' the following names: Saleel, Do'Iteq, Ba'Kor, K'Val, Ghen?   Would House of Do'Iteq be do’Iteq tuq?

When I write a post for my rpg I like to write 'Klingon stuff' as authentic as possible.  For example, I no longer write targ but rather targh.

most of those are already pretty Klingon already: Do'Iteq, ba'qor, q'val, ghen. Saleel, I don't know how you actually pronounce the 'ee' part of that, but I'd write it something like SelIIl maybe... It's really up to you.

and yes, the house of Do'Iteq would be Do'Iteq tuq.

When it comes to names you can write them how ever you feel like it. If you get stuck just read the bit in the Klingon dictionary that explains pronunciation. Then you'll be able to do any names yourself. I always used to recommend that to my friends when I used to do Klingon sims online.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Interesting, let me cut and paste these replies so I can use them later.   Well, let's try to translate something else...

A few weeks ago I checked out the Klingon Language Institute site and saw that in tlhIngan Gowron is pronounced/written ghawran.  Also, House of Worf is [b]war'Iv tuq[/b].

Can anyone 'klingonize' the following names: Saleel, Do'Iteq, Ba'Kor, K'Val, Ghen?   Would House of Do'Iteq be do’Iteq tuq?

When I write a post for my rpg I like to write 'Klingon stuff' as authentic as possible.  For example, I no longer write targ but rather targh.

most of those are already pretty Klingon already: Do'Iteq, ba'qor, q'val, ghen. Saleel, I don't know how you actually pronounce the 'ee' part of that, but I'd write it something like SelIIl maybe... It's really up to you.

and yes, the house of Do'Iteq would be Do'Iteq tuq.

When it comes to names you can write them how ever you feel like it. If you get stuck just read the bit in the Klingon dictionary that explains pronunciation. Then you'll be able to do any names yourself. I always used to recommend that to my friends when I used to do Klingon sims online.

Saleel is the odd one out, having the double vowels. I think [Sa'lIl] would be the way I would write my pronunciation of the word as I see it here... I would pronounce "ee" as in "Leela" of Futurama fame...

[Kesvirit]

quoth hommemonk:  A few weeks ago I checked out the Klingon Language Institute site and saw that in tlhIngan Gowron is pronounced/written ghawran. Also, House of Worf is war'Iv tuq.

Where did you read this? The KLI’s New Canonical Klingon Words lists Worf as {wo'rIv}, not “war’Iv”. You may wish to contact them and point out their inconsistencies. (If such things matter to you...*shrug*)

quoth hommemonk:  Can anyone 'klingonize' the following names: Saleel, Do'Iteq, Ba'Kor, K'Val, Ghen?   Would House of Do'Iteq be do’Iteq tuq?

quoth qurgh:  most of those are already pretty Klingon already: Do'Iteq, ba'qor, q'val, ghen. Saleel, I don't know how you actually pronounce the 'ee' part of that, but I'd write it something like SelIIl maybe... It's really up to you. ***

According to the KLI wiki entry on phonology, where C=consonants and V=vowels, the only options for syllable construction are:
 - oy (only as the Type 1 noun suffix)
 - CV
 - CVC (except for Cow and Cuw)
 - CVrgh
 - CVw' (except for Cow' and Cuw')
 - CVy'
 - Exceptions: qIrq and pIqarD.

[Note: In thlIngan Hol, ch, gh, ng, and tlh are clusters that serve as single-letter consonants. Based on this, I am assuming that dipthongs such as {Iy} also serve as single letters.]

When writing non-thlIhngan words using the thlIngan alphabet, consonant clusters other than those listed above are broken up with a combination of { ‘ } and {I} that will bring the syllables of the word into compliance with the patterns listed above (while disrupting the original spelling as little as possible.) Remember that { ‘ } is a specific letter and a consonant, and that you can’t just throw it in anywhere!

quoth qurgh:   When it comes to names you can write them how ever you feel like it. If you get stuck just read the bit in the Klingon dictionary that explains pronunciation.

TKD explains pronunciation, but does not address word construction. That part came later. The KLI is almost as bad about retcon as Paraborg. The above phonology information dates to April 3, 2003.

When “tlhIngan-izing” words, names are subject to the same rules as other words. The “ee” in Saleel would not be transliterated as {SelIIl} because one cannot use two vowels in a row. According to the sounds of thlIngan, the “ee” in Saleel would be spelled {Iy}, making the word {Sal’Iyl}. This brings the word into the CVC-CVC syllable pattern, one of those listed above.

K’val would be not “q’val,” because this contains three consonants in a row. It would more likely be {qI’val}, a CVC-CVC word.

Do’Iteq, ba’qor, and ghen can stand as it. If you want to be as authentic as possible, I recommend observing the upper/lower case rules of tlhInagn Hol, even if that means beginning a sentence with a lower case letter. It is a case of breaking one rule to observe another; you must decide which rules set takes precedence for your undertaking.

[Qunchuy]

[Note: In thlIngan Hol, ch, gh, ng, and tlh are clusters that serve as single-letter consonants. Based on this, I am assuming that dipthongs such as {Iy} also serve as single letters.]

That's not a safe assumption. TKD classifies sounds as either vowels or consonants, and says nothing about diphthongs. There is a short section that some people think is talking about diphthongs, but most of us read it as merely warning the casual reader that vowels don't change their sound when they're followed by certain consonants, as sometimes happens in English. One example is that paw arrive has the same a as in father, and comes closer to rhyming with cow than with jaw. The aw pair is not a diphthong, and when pronounced carefully is just a followed by w.

When “tlhIngan-izing” words, names are subject to the same rules as other words. The “ee” in Saleel would not be transliterated as {SelIIl} because one cannot use two vowels in a row. According to the sounds of thlIngan, the “ee” in Saleel would be spelled {Iy}, making the word {Sal’Iyl}. This brings the word into the CVC-CVC syllable pattern, one of those listed above.

The "syllable" *'Iyl doesn't fit the observed pattern, because it has an unattested consonant cluster yl at the end.

I'd have to hear someone pronouncing Saleel to be sure how I'd render it with a Klingon "accent". My guess is that SalIyel or SalIyyel would come close. But I'd suggest Salyel as the simplest and easiest to say while still being "close enough".

K’val would be not “q’val,” because this contains three consonants in a row. It would more likely be {qI’val}, a CVC-CVC word.

It could even be qIval or qeval, along the lines of qempeq K'mpec.


[Edit -- fixed BBcode]

[Kesvirit]

quoth Kesvirit:  [Note: In thlIngan Hol, ch, gh, ng, and tlh are clusters that serve as single-letter consonants. Based on this, I am assuming that dipthongs such as {Iy} also serve as single letters.]

quoth Qunchuy:  That's not a safe assumption. TKD classifies sounds as either vowels or consonants, and says nothing about diphthongs. There is a short section that some people think is talking about diphthongs, but most of us read it as merely warning the casual reader that vowels don't change their sound when they're followed by certain consonants, as sometimes happens in English.

Your mention of “a short section that some people think is talking about diphthongs, but most of us read it as...” only proves that the section is open to interpretation. And who is most of us?

quoth Qunchuy:  The "syllable" *'Iyl doesn't fit the observed pattern, because it has an unattested consonant cluster yl at the end.

It does if one looks at the syllable in its entireity and applies the “dipthong = single letter” rule I observed above: {‘Iyl} = CVC.

(Another possible complication is that the capital “i” and the lower case “L” come out looking similar enough to be mistaken for one another. I looked into changing the Forums fonts and it is a lot more complicated than I thought. I know just enough about CSS code to ensure that nothing ever loads again AHAHAHAHAAAAAA!)
Ahem... Anyway...

quoth Kesvirit:  K’val would be not “q’val,” because this contains three consonants in a row. It would more likely be {qI’val}, a CVC-CVC word.

quoth Qunchuy:  It could even be qIval or qeval, along the lines of qempeq K'mpec.

Quite right. I was going for the simplest construction I could find. {qeval} would certainly be the easiest to spell because it contains neither an apostrophe nor any letters designated as upper-case. (I hate to see people mixing apostrophes and capital letters into words any old way...)

hommemonk891, is this making things better or worse?

[Qunchuy]

..who is most of us?

Here, "us" refers to we who actually speak Klingon well enough to carry on conversations with each other on occasion. The concept of diphthongs crops up every once in a while on the tlhIngan-Hol email discussion forum, and the arguments are well understood. One can devise phonological rules that include diphthongs, or rules that do not include them, and both sets of rules are consistent with what we are given as examples. The diphthong-inclusive rules are slightly more complicated than the diphthong-exclusive ones, and most people would say that simpler rules are preferable when they produce the same results. Whether or not you agree, however, the basic fact remains that The Klingon Dictionary neither uses the word "diphthong" nor suggests that certain vowel-consonant pairs can be used as if they were plain vowels.

quoth Qunchuy:  The "syllable" *'Iyl doesn't fit the observed pattern, because it has an unattested consonant cluster yl at the end.

It does if one looks at the syllable in its entireity and applies the “dipthong = single letter” rule I observed above: {‘Iyl} = CVC.

The word "unattested" means "we've never seen it before." There's no evidence on which to base a general "diphthongs can go anywhere a vowel can" rule. Your suggested syllable fits an extrapolation of what we find in the examples given to us, but it does not fit the observation.

[soup_borg]

hommemonk891, is this making things better or worse?

   Let me get back to you on that one.  I mean, I'm learning something new but still...I can't even re-learn Spanish without getting a headache.

I probably should apologize for adding "Saleel" to the list.  It wasn't meant to be a tlhIngan name, but Saurian, although I'm still interested how to pronounce it in Klingon.

Where did you read this? The KLI’s New Canonical Klingon Words lists Worf as {wo'rIv}, not “war’Iv”. You may wish to contact them and point out their inconsistencies. (If such things matter to you...*shrug*)

Actually, I think I got that translation a few months ago from that site, so I guess it's already been changed.


[Edit -- merged double post]

[soup_borg]

Do’Iteq, ba’qor, and ghen can stand as it. If you want to be as authentic as possible, I recommend observing the upper/lower case rules of tlhInagn Hol, even if that means beginning a sentence with a lower case letter. It is a case of breaking one rule to observe another; you must decide which rules set takes precedence for your undertaking.

I've always done so on my Trek SIMMs/RPGs...along with a translation at the end of my posts.

Anyway, I'll try to "klingonize" the other names I need.  A few months ago I tried to "Klingonize" Calzada, a place where I used to live, so I went ahead and wrote it as chal’aDa.  I was simply going for pronounciation.

[ter'eS]

A few months ago I tried to "Klingonize" Calzada, a place where I used to live, so I went ahead and wrote it as chal’aDa.  I was simply going for pronounciation.

Here's a perfect example of how personal these kinds of choices really are.  I would have written qaljaDa or qalSaDa.

[Kesvirit]

Is there a better word than “Klingonizing” we can use? “Klingonizing. To make Klingon.” It can mean many things and is only understood in context. (Which, granted, is not a problem in this case.) Would something like thlIngan-ize or Hol-ify serve better?

Qunchuy:  One can devise phonological rules that include diphthongs, or rules that do not include them, and both sets of rules are consistent with what we are given as examples.

I am interested to see these rules. The search engines I queried failed to produce any. Are they hidden behind closed doors? Just because something is on the net doesn’t mean it’s open to the spiderbots that do the searching.

The Klingon Dictionary neither uses the word "diphthong" nor suggests that certain vowel-consonant pairs can be used as if they were plain vowels.

TKD omits all sorts of relevant material.  This is why I keep having to refer seekers to Klingonska Akademian. And ter’eS’s pages. And qe’San’s.... Have you considered using your influence to push for an updated edition of TKD incorporating all of the new material that has surfaced since the last revision, published fifteen years ago?

Speaking of dipthongs, a search did yield an interesting word: ”diphthongizates” (and even “triphthongizes”.)

The word "unattested" means "we've never seen it before." There's no evidence on which to base a general "diphthongs can go anywhere a vowel can" rule. Your suggested syllable fits an extrapolation of what we find in the examples given to us, but it does not fit the observation.

::looks around to see who might overhear; checks behind the curtain for spies with repeated stabs of a stiletto::  Let me let share with you a secret of the Empire’s success in establishing outposts such as this.  ::leans in closer with a conspiratorial air::  Working dictionaries of the official languages of places to which one is assigned are standard issue in the Diplomatic Corps.

soup borg:  A few months ago I tried to "Klingonize" Calzada, a place where I used to live, so I went ahead and wrote it as chal’aDa.  I was simply going for pronounciation.

ter’eS:  Here's a perfect example of how personal these kinds of choices really are.  I would have written qaljaDa or qalSaDa.

ter’eS makes a good point. Transliteration is not an exact science, and depends more than I would wish on the ear of the beholder. The phonologies of the listener’s native language(s), dialect, individual pitch sensitivities, and other factors help determine what the listener will actually hear. When I was first learning to put it to use, our teacher gave us a fair amount of leeway when transliterating spoken words into IPA notation.

soup borg, a suggestion: when trying to decide betwen several options for the same word -- e.g., {chal’aDa}, {qaljaDa}, and {qalSaDa} for Calzada -- speak the “Klingonized” words out loud as well as saying them in your head (if you are not already). Do this several times for each candidate, and I think one will emerge as sounding closer than the rest. Descriptions and actual sounds of thlIngan can be found here. To hear the sounds of a given letter, click on the red letter underlined in blue.

I’d go with {qalSaDa}, but I’ve never heard Calzada pronounced. Because I can't speak Spanish I can only go by reading the letters and making an educated guess as to how it is pronounced. Actually hearing all the words in question can change things.

[soup_borg]

soup borg, a suggestion: when trying to decide betwen several options for the same word -- e.g., {chal’aDa}, {qaljaDa}, and {qalSaDa} for Calzada -- speak the “Klingonized” words out loud as well as saying them in your head (if you are not already). Do this several times for each candidate, and I think one will emerge as sounding closer than the rest. Descriptions and actual sounds of thlIngan can be found here. To hear the sounds of a given letter, click on the red letter underlined in blue.

I’d go with {qalSaDa}, but I’ve never heard Calzada pronounced. Because I can't speak Spanish I can only go by reading the letters and making an educated guess as to how it is pronounced. Actually hearing all the words in question can change things.

Actually I was thinking of using {qalSaDa}.  The problem with me when I try to thlIngan-ize is that I can't speak the language, I use the rough translations in TKD.  I go by what I hear on the TV show or a website.

I read "the observed phonology of Klingon" to help me with the name Anja and came up with Hancha'.  It's probably wrong, but I'll keep trying.

"..every...word in The Klingon Dictionary begins with a single consonant followed by a single vowel."

[Klythe]

   Keep in mind that the glottal stop written with the apostrophe is considered a consonant in tlhIngan Hol  so either 'ancha or 'ancha' is probably closer to the sound of Anja than Hancha' . 

   There are no native non-ficticous speakers of Klingon so we are all really just guessing at what Mark Okrand intended or didn't intend...  So where accepted sources exist, yay!   Otherwise we are just working on our best guesses.   There is a bias towards precident and patterns in our guesses while natural languages are not always constrained by such things.

[Kesvirit]

quoth soup borg:  The problem with me when I try to thlIngan-ize is that I can't speak the language, I use the rough translations in TKD.  I go by what I hear on the TV show or a website.

Approach websites with extreme caution when transliterating/”Klingonizing”. Many are posted by those who do not understand what they are doing and have copied their information from faulty sources.

A few of the more credible and useful websites (NOT a comprehensive list):
   Klingonska Akademien
   tlhIngan Qumem
   ter’eS Klingon Pages

Never go by what you hear on television episodes. Most “Klingon” is gibberish thrown together by screenwriters who are not familiar with the term “research”. This is known as “Paramount Hol”. The few instances of “legitimate” thlIngan are spoken by actors who have to memorize a lot of script in a short amount of time and are unfamiliar with thlIngan phonology. When spoken by actors at a conversational speed, even experts are hard-pressed to pick out actual words.

quoth Klythe:  Keep in mind that the glottal stop written with the apostrophe is considered a consonant in tlhIngan Hol  so either  'ancha  or  'ancha' is probably closer to the sound of Anja than  Hancha'

Why replace the “ j “ with the {ch}? {j} is a both a discrete phoneme and a letter in thlIngan Hol. {‘anja} looks and sounds fine as it is. I would also omit the final { ‘ }. If there is no reason to think that the sound occurs in the orininal word “Anja”, why add it? It is unnecessary and misleading.

[soup_borg]

As always, thanks for the information.  "Paramount Hol"?  Never heard that of that one.   Thanks to TKD I've been able to understand the tlhIngan Hol spoken in only two Trek episodes, "Matter of Honor" and "Sword of Kahless".  But only for little words like 'speak their language' or 'good night'.  I turn into an even bigger geek when I can actually understand what they said in an episode.  Speaking of actors, watched VOY "Blood Fever" yesterday; I cringed when B'Elanna says 'patahk' (as it says on the Closed Captioned text).

[Klythe]

Why replace the “ j “ with the {ch}? {j} is a both a discrete phoneme and a letter in thlIngan Hol. {‘anja} looks and sounds fine as it is. I would also omit the final { ‘ }. If there is no reason to think that the sound occurs in the orininal word “Anja”, why add it? It is unnecessary and misleading.

   I don't know how Anja is pronounced, I was working off of soup's attempt which was Hancha'.  'j' is a discrete letter and phoneme in tlhIngan Hol, but it isn't necessarily the same phoneme in the source language/dialect that Anja does.   Klingon J is said to be identical or nearly with j in many English words.

    Behindthename.com(A great resource for meaningful character names) lists Anja as of Scandinavian, Finnish, or Slovene origin.   if Anja is pronounced simiilar to the English phrase on jaw, then ‘anja would probably be closest.   But if Anja is pronounced as a Germanic name by American speakers it would probably be rendered on yuh or on yah which would sound to a Klingon like 'anya.  I don't know enough about how it would be properly pronounced by persons of Scandinavian, Finnish, or Slovene origin.   But, 'ancha did not sound unreasonable to me so I didn't question it.  I could probably be able to find out if I knew which of the three(or perhaps some other language that the name had already been transliterated to) that Anja came from.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

As a Dutch native (and German speaker), I would write "Anja" as {'anya'}.
I pronounce both "a" sounds practically the same, as short forms of "a" in "father".
The "j" sound I pronounce as the "y" in "yam".

I would go for both {'} letters because the last "a" is not long like it is in "father" or "rather" but short like in "fat" or "rat" (although still sounding like "father", just short).
Any little puff of air after the name would be accepted... I haven't heard either Anja I know at work complain about my pronunciation 8-)

[soup_borg]

Here's a new name to "Klingonize", it's a new SIMM character I'm working on, a female Klingon named: M'Korca  Ardar.

I came up with:  m'qorqa 'arDargh

[Klythe]

      Again the rules of phonology don't always apply to names...   But if M'Korca was a word, I would point out that m'q is three consonants in a row, where neither two pairs forms a valid cluster.   As a word it would need a vowel in there...  mI'qorqa, or perhaps ma'qorqa, me'qorqa, mo'qorqa, or mu'qorqa.  I perfer I as it is the shortest sounding vowel to my ears.

[soup_borg]

This is were the fact that I can't speak Klingon inders my ability to "Klingonize" words.  I've tried but I really gives me a headache. 

But that's why you guys and gals are here! 

[SoplaHtaHwI']

      Again the rules of phonology don't always apply to names...   But if M'Korca was a word, I would point out that m'q is three consonants in a row, where neither two pairs forms a valid cluster.   As a word it would need a vowel in there...  mI'qorqa, or perhaps ma'qorqa, me'qorqa, mo'qorqa, or mu'qorqa.  I perfer I as it is the shortest sounding vowel to my ears.

I have a prediliction for the letter {I} when making tlhIngan Hol from Klingonaase words... Although, as far as I know, M'Korca would not even be Klingonaase...

mI'qorqa/mI'qorSa/mI'qorcha would probably also need an {'} at the end... Or is the "a" supposed to be longer?
Why I would use {I}? Because I tend to see the i in any language as the smallest, most insignificant vowel...

[soup_borg]

I have a prediliction for the letter {I} when making tlhIngan Hol from Klingonaase words... Although, as far as I know, M'Korca would not even be Klingonaase...

mI'qorqa/mI'qorSa/mI'qorcha would probably also need an {'} at the end... Or is the "a" supposed to be longer?
Why I would use {I}? Because I tend to see the i in any language as the smallest, most insignificant vowel...

Again, this is were my lack of speaking Klingon comes in.  But I do tend to believe that it's a long "a".