Who was the greatest Klingon on the big screen?

[tmk1000]

what do you think who was it  speak up

[Abbot Nej vIt]

This is a Great Question, (Which I am Just Now Getting around to Checking out)... Perhaps if it were to be Accompanied by a Poll Listing Some Options it would Get More Attention?

For Myself, I have to say that it Depends on the Perspective of the Questioner... For Instance, Does Greatness Refer here to the "Most" Agressive, or the Most Far-sighted? Or Perhaps someone would like to Suggest another Option?

As to the Most Agressive, it Would Have to Be General Chang From ST 6: The Undiscovered Country... As He was Willing to Pitch the Entire Empire into War at a Very Dangerous Time, in Order to Persue What he Believed to be the Best Chance the Empire had to Not Only Survive, but to Reclaim the Empires Traditional Strength and Power...

In Terms of Having the Best Far Reaching "Vision", I Would Have to Give that to Chancellor Azetbur, Also From ST6, as she was Able to Recognize the Needs of The Empire in the Future, despite her Great Personal Loss... Thus Making it Possible for a True Treaty with the Federation... Now this may Seem Questionable From a "Warriors" Perspective but in terms of Ensuring a Future for the Empire... Well... History Speaks for itself...

QeylIS (Kahless), Said:

noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay
chavbe'lu' ej wo' choqmeH may'
DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'.

Destroying an Empire to win a War is no
victory, and ending a Battle to Save
an Empire is no Defeat.

[tmk1000]

I would have to agree.I think it could also depend on wisdom,honor,courge,and many other key factors.I am having a rather hard time so i will think about it and let some other people pour in there feelings on the matter

[Klythe]

I disagree.  It is clear to me that the greatest Klingon on the big screen was Maltz.  He exhibited all Klingon values perfectly, Honor, Fatalism, and Stoicism.  It is a pity we didn't get to see more of in battle.

[qoSagh]

Maltz is an often forgotten player in the empire, I think because of his lack of screen time. The bit I always remember about his brief appearance, is when he complains that Kirk promised to kill him, and is instead taken to the brig. He seems surprised at Kirk's dishonorable conduct, despite Kirk being the quentisential villian. This attitude is the basis for one of my earliest Klingon writing projects which basically took the point that Klignons take everything at face value until proven otherwise. Since honor is the standard in the empire, a Klingon assumes honor until dishonor is made evident.

Without ever having met Kirk, and knowing him to be an enemy of the empire, Maltz assumed that battle would be conducted honorably, and was surprised when it was not. This is, I think, one of the best aspects of Klingon honor. This is probably why even Worf was concerned about Alexander lying, simply because it wasn't done.

As for who is the greatest, I too think there needs to be better criteria, as I can think of several who would be in the running depending on what they were the greatest in.

[KAllen]

Shouldn't Gorkon be considered with the "greatest vision" since it was he that initiated the start of peace talks w/ the Feddies.   Azetbur did have the cahonies to see them enacted into what became known as the "Khitomer Accords", but before that it was the "Gorkon Initiative"

They may be the best Tag Team Klingons with vision.

Other votes for tag teams would be Koloth, Kor, and Kang for mediating with Kurzon Dax upon the original peace treaty with the Feddies.

However, greatest in reference to Klingon is rather based on interpretation. Like "who's the best human"...at what? drinking, burping, jumping orange cars over ditches, its all a matter of perspective.  I could list for days why Richard Petty is way greater than Dale Earnhardt Sr., or why KISS is the greatest Rock Band, or why the General Lee is the coolest car on TV, or why the Fabulous Freebirds are the greatest wrestling Tag Team.  It's all a matter of perspective on the term "Greatest."

Maybe we need some catagories for greatest.  

[KAllen]

Ok, now that I went off on what I thought to be a rather decent argument on my part...I read the ENTIRE topic and noticed "big screen" at the end.

Hey, I'm Klingon, not Vulcan!!!

or as one of Gilda Radner's characters said..."Never Mind!"

[tmk1000]

Maybe someone should make a new poll as to what makes a klingon great and have sub polls as to who rules in what..

[Abbot Nej vIt]

As to Setting the Criteria for Klingon Greatness on this Topic, Well This is Your Baby Targ TMK, Run with it...<Chuckle>...

As to Kirks Notorious Deceptions and Dishonor, well it is a Matter of History, so I Hardly have anthing to Argue there... Maltz was a Good Example Certainly (Of Klingon Character), But his Effectiveness has to be Taken into Account I Think, Klingons Tend to Respect Achievement and Results, reH lugh charghwI', "The Victor is always right"... But in Terms of Honor we Must be Prepared to Face Those who have No Honor, and Still Maintain our own Integrity...

And While Gorkon WAS the Original Author of the Gorkon Initiative, it was After all Azetbur Who Was Able to Turn A Challenging Situation into a Victory, Again in Spite of What Must have been a Terrible NEED for Vengence...

And as far as "Small" Screen Klingons Go, I intentionally Avoided Jumping in to that... Typically Klingons are Highly "Demonized" in the Films (Presumeably to Provide a Worthy Antagonist), So in my Opinion Klingons in the Television Series Tend to be a Little More Complicated...

[qoSagh]

Maybe I am missing something here, but why would Gorkon even be considered? Having been the first to propose peace witht eh federation, would make one a criminal not a hero. Time and time again we have seen that the federation has no honor, and will at the drop of a hat turn thier trechery upon our empire without hesitation.

[tmk1000]

Well for starters,we can have diffrent modes for klingons,

Greatest mind:
Greatest war stratgy minded Klingon:
Strongest:
Best leader:
Ect

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Maybe I am missing something here, but why would Gorkon even be considered? Having been the first to propose peace witht eh federation, would make one a criminal not a hero. Time and time again we have seen that the federation has no honor, and will at the drop of a hat turn thier trechery upon our empire without hesitation.

narghbe'chugh SuvwI' qa taH may'

"If the Warriors Spirit has Not Escaped, then the Battle is Still Going on"


I Think Gorkon Knew that The Empire Needed to be able to take Stock of it's Current Weakened State, While Finding a Way to Save Face and Still Preserve What Strength Remained... The Federation, although Nearly as untrustworthy as the Romulans, Is as Notoriously Easy to Get to Drop their Guard... And Can be Manipulated Easily... By Forging a Non Aggression Treaty with the Federation, (Who really has no Belly for a Fight anyway), Gorkon could Conserve Resources For a Rebuilding of the Empires Strength While Effectively Disarming a Very Dangerous Opponant... This Argument is One Which Falls Heavily into the Realm of Diplomacy, Which Plays its Part in the Great Game... And Gorkon Was a Diplomat After all... Who Can Say What the Outcome might have Been Had Chang Succeeded? He Did Not... And As I Have already Stated "The Victor is always Right"... Though Gorkon Died for His Efforts, Those Loyal to him Still Saw his Will to Conclusion...

So qosagh, Who would be YOUR Pick?

[J'Maq]

Gorkon was a visionary indeed. After the destruction of Praxis, Gorkon had to ensure the immediate survival of his people for posterity's sake. "Better to die on one's feet than to live and crawl on one's knees" sounds noble in short, but Gorkon knew the Klingon heart for its resiliency and its tenacity. And today, as a result, the empire endures and thrives.
                                             

                                            *Death to typos!

[qoSagh]

I don't think the Big Screen has shown us more than a few "good" Klingons. Simply because the big screen has kept Klingons in their place as villians while the small screen has introduced us to Klingons as more vital but less villainous characters. I was at first tempted to say Kruge, but I realized that most of my reasons would not be Klingon based but fandom based. I therefore put out that Change was the Best Big Screen Klingon, not only because he oozed character the was Kor did, but also because he quoted the bard with a show of teeth. He showed that he would do anything to accomplish his mission which was ultimately proven to be a dishonorable tactic. But that in and of itself is another contribution, how many other Klingon criminals would even be candidates for best anything? Yes it has to be Chang.

[nx1701g]

Going by these:

Greatest mind: Chancellor Gowron - He seemed to be a very seasoned, very dedicated leader who wanted the best for his people.
Greatest war stratgy minded Klingon: War strategy I'd have to go for General Chang. He had the cloaked bird of prey at his disposal and he also was involved in the entire plot. Dangerous indeed.
Strongest: Vixis didn't look like someone you'd want to mess with, Klaa either
Best leader: Despite the fact that he was killed, I have to have another vote for Chang.

[Kash]

General Chang, all the way. That character, and that character alone, is the single force strong enough to pull me into the ranks of klingon fandom. Having grown up on scant few TOS reruns, seeing mostly TNG, and the random showings of ST:2-4 on tv, I'd always seen then as honorable, strong, but very intellectually inferior for some reason. It seemed like all the time Klingons spent on screen was solely for blood and overpowering strength, leading me (in my youth) to assume that they simply stole the technology they required to survive and adapt.

...and then Chang quoted Shakespeare.

I was hooked. That a species and culture could be so war-like, so strong, so aggressive, and yet still maintain a very strong scholarly and philosophical tradition astounded me; it was a mixture I'd been attempting to live for years, and finding very few sources supporting that the two could co-exist.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

It is curious to me as I go back and reread some of the responses to this discussion, (My own included), how difficult it can be to separate "The Klingon perspective", from "Fan-preference" from "Personal identification"... All of which is valid and quite interesting... We have all answered this question with bits and pieces of all of these I think.

Perhaps with the recent response of Kash, we will see still others chime in on this debate...


maj! {Good}...

[ShinRa]

Same here, General Chang all the way.

one of the last "evil" "techy" space-soviet Klingons ;p

before they became pretty much clones of vikings/mongol hoardes ;]

Shinra

[Canis]

I vote for Kruge; daring, ruthless, fearless… and totally entertaining in all the best ways.

Plus he commanded the coolest ship in all of trek cinema!

Later