Joining a House when already in a House of ones own.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

I have a little "problem".

My House, qI'meQ, is a small house, 1 person in reality, about 10 on paper.
I have been asked to join a friend's House, making me the 6th real member of that house, and I believe the House will only have 6 members either way at that point.

I would not like to abandon my (albeit virtual) House as it is a very un-Klingon thing to do. I would however be honoured to join my friend's House, both as a man and as a Klingon.

What would be the best solution to this problem? Can my Klingon persona still keep his House name, or does this only work with Consortships?

I have considered the disbanding and/or extinction of my House in a story.

--
qa'pIn qorghon puqloD qI'meQ tuq

[qoSagh]

It would seem to me that the best option would be for the new (larger) house to adopt the entire old (smaller) house on paper, thus making one a subordinate house of the other. It would then be up to the leader of the larger house as to what rules to impose on the use of names.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

It would seem to me that the best option would be for the new (larger) house to adopt the entire old (smaller) house on paper, thus making one a subordinate house of the other. It would then be up to the leader of the larger house as to what rules to impose on the use of names.

It is an option. My (the older) house is regional in nature and would also be honored to be taken up into the larger and newer house... I just have to tell the joH of the newer House that I would prefer this above me abandoning my house entirely...

Thanks qoSagh for the thoughts

[Kesvirit]

I am still unclear as to the difference between a House and a Line; I think it may come down to when one came to Klindom. But if you build upon qoSagh’s suggestion and designate your native house as your biological Line, and a House as an overreaching economical entity, then you could join the newer, larger House without having to give up your Line membership, identity, and history. (See also the thread What are Houses, Anyway? for further confusion on the topic.)

SoplaHtaHwI’, I would be interested to hear what solution you and your prospective new House come up with.

-=- Kesvirit

[Abbot Nej vIt]

SoplaHtaHwI',

Greetings...

This touches very nicely on the matter we have discussed in the past on how Family/House/Line may work.

I am reposting (From another forum) a recent example of how this might work:

Let me put it into a cloers to real world context. This would be approximate of course since the purpose behind a Klingon Family/House/Line could be different than a real world example, but bear with me...

Family:

Your immediate family, which might include you, your mate, children, brothers and sisters, mother and father... Let's call them the "Smiths"...

The Smiths get together occasionally for family meals, they share some resources, maybe exchange gifts at special occasions and so on. They are intimately involved in eachothers daily lives and look out for eachother where appropriate.

Your Father is the current Patron of the group, and is generally recognized as being the head of the Family ever since Grandma Beatrice passed a couple of years back.

House:

Now once or twice a year your "Family" attends a fairly local "Family-reunion". The Smith family reunion often brings together cousins, in laws and other extended family members. There is a sesne of fellowship because most share the same name, but not all. There are folks who have taken on the sur-name of their respective mates and not a few new faces each year.

People regularly come from out-of-town to attend the Smith Family Reunion, some even from out of state. Occasionally some buisiness is also conducted as introductions are made between various business owners and the like. Clearly not every one is immediate family, but everyone who attends is connected in some way.

House Lady/Lord (zantaI):

Likely there is a small number of Matrons and Patrons of the group who are equally likely the ones who keep things going and everyone looks forward to seeing, but there is one person in particular old Granny Smith, who has been around for a long time. She always seems to be directly involved in the planning process for the reunion, and ALWAYS seems to be involved when those new business introductions are being made. Granny Smith also seems to be aware of any petty disputes and in-fighting that may be happening, and she is not above grabbing anyone by the ear and making them sort out their differences.

Granny Smith is recognized by all who attend as being "The" Matron of the whole gaggle. She is their zantaI. When she passes, another favorite Aunt or Uncle will likely take the title, ensureing that the Smith Family and extended family continue to keep in touch and play nice.

Line:

A few years ago Granny Smith, or another ranking relative, discovered that there was an international group of Smiths' out there who get together in Germany every five years. This is a loose association of course, and many of those who attend while sharing the name Smith can not trace any direct blood relations to eachother. In fact some are Smythes, Smits and so on. But they enjoy at least a theorhetical bond of family in that they share a common root name.

Granny Smith sent an envoy to Germany for the last Get-together five years ago. She herself was not able to go but she elected to send you in her place to represent her "House" and its interests at the gathering. When you got there you saw that there were others in similar situations. While the gathering itself was large, it was not as large as the Smith Family Reunions you have back home. It was made up more of representatives from the other Smith Family Reunions around the world as opposed to being attended by every Smit,Smythe, or Smith out there.

You made several contacts at the last event, which you were able to put others in touch with back home. Uncle Mack was able to finally find a source for a rare strain of German Barley for instance and his home-brewed beer has never been better. Aunt Sally was able to expand her business of selling home-made knick knacks, and Aunt Gail found an over seas market for her computer software company.

Though not directly related, the community of Smiths is now larger than ever, and you are sort of recognized as being the "Official" represenative for your "House" at the international gathering.

Line Lady/Lord (epetaI):

One of the people you met at the last gathering was Gustov Smit. He is the one who organizes the Smith gathering every five years in Germany, and all of those there tend to see him as the figure head for this trully extend association of Smiths'. He is not directly in charge of any of the localized Smith Family Reunions around the world, but he does keep tabs on them, runs a web-site where people who have attended the five year gatherings often post updates, arrange business connections or just chat, and he does a pretty good job of it.

Gustov Smit is therefore the Line Lord of the whole deal. And the gathering in Germany is a Council of the Houses within that Line.

So in your case I would submit, that your original "House" might actually fall into the "Family" definition. While the new House is litterally that... Were they to adopt your Family into the House as qoSagh suggested, both histories would remain intact.

Just a thought...

maj {Good}...

[qoSagh]

I disagree with one thing about how you characterized Lines, I think that even though the members might all be very distant relatives, everyone in a line would be able to trace a direct lineage back to a central point. Even with name changes and such, there would still be a connection.

And in reading this, I suddenly had a thought about house we often mistranslate Klingon concepts. I always have maintained that words like House, Family & Line are actually English translations for Klingon words or concepts. Most of what we have in the way they are used comes from Paraborg or FASA or some other once authorized source. Based on that and your descriptions, which jive with these sources as much as anything can, this means that the people who live in your Dwelling are Family and not House, and the people you are related to are House not Family. 

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Yeah it's kind of funny how that worked out...

But the concept structure is based on the following:

- One's Family (Most often Blood relatives in the real world), may or may not live in the same building or other physical structure. Thus they are not a "Household" per se'...

- A Household (Again in real world terms) may or may not contain a single Family of blood relatives. However, amongst the affluent and powerful it is highly likely that members of a Household will contain those who are not related by blood or marriage, including perhaps servants, body guards, trusted advisors, or other charges whom the Householder is ultimately responsible for. So the term "House" as I use it refelcts a organizational "Household"...

- The line concept of course becomes a little more convoluted, but the way I see it, and the reason I always include it in these types of discussions, is that it is an Umbrella under which many Households who are connected by alliances as well as in some cases distant relations might be organized. One could litterally trace a "Line" through the connections from one Family/House to another historically.

But, yes if anything the various uses/meanings of the actual words may or may not accurately translate from one language to another. In fact if you look at some of the following words there are some immediate questions on this point

qorDu' [Family]
qor [Scavenge]
Du' [Farm]

Though the word qorDu' [Family] is not necessarily an intentional compounded form of qor [Scavenge] and Du' [Farm], it does suggest an interesting possibility. What if in prehistory, Klingons equated their connections (Linguistically) more in terms of resource management than on blood relations. A Family is made up of those who scavenged and perhaps later farmed together? This would actually suggest that "Family" might actually mean something closer to my definition of a "Household"...

juH [Home]

In this case there is simply a word for "Home." Not house, but then Home can be used [by Humans] as a feeling as well as a place. So who knows if there is another interpretation. Also it should be noted that for us [Again Humans] a House does not always mean a place where we live, or where we "Feel" at home. It can simply be a structure in which certain types of activities may take place.

tuQ [Wear]

This one is interesting because I have often heard this word used in the way that "House" is often used in fandom and on screen. (i.e.) One's tuQ is one's "House." Yet, at least in my TKD, the actual word means "Wear." Could this be a shortened form of "To wear the colors/devices" of one's Household? I would like to know how and when folks started using the word tuQ to decribe one's house associations. I do not have access to KGT so it may appear there.

tlhoQ [Conglomeration]
tlhegh [Line,Rope]

I have never seen this word - tlhoQ - used in the context of this discussion, but perhaps this might be closer to my definition of a "Line" than would the litteral word - tlhegh - which means a physical thing like a rope. By total coincidence, both sound a very little like the word theld that some old guard still use to describe what may be a similar concept?

maj! {Good}...

[Qunchuy]

tuQ [Wear]

The word you're looking for is tuq tribe, house, ancestral unit.

If you take The Final Reflection as a source of information, a Line and a House are completely separate concepts. The main character grew up in House Gensa, a "House of lineless ones". Later in his career, he chose an available "line name" with the intent of starting a new line. Through that book's cultural window, one sees that a Line implies family relationship, and a House does not.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

tuQ [Wear]

The word you're looking for is tuq tribe, house, ancestral unit.

From where do you source this? Is it from KGT? I have seen folks use both tuq and tuQ, though it is likely that one or the other is used incorrectly...

maj {Good}...

[SoplaHtaHwI']

The word you're looking for is tuq tribe, house, ancestral unit.

From where do you source this? Is it from KGT? I have seen folks use both tuq and tuQ, though it is likely that one or the other is used incorrectly...

maj {Good}...

It certainly is in KGT.
It can of course originate from a qep'a' or newsgroup posting of MO (Marc Okrand) anywhere between TKD and KGT.

[Kesvirit]

quoth Abbot Nej vIt:but there is one person in particular old Granny Smith, who has been around for a long time. She always seems to be directly involved in the planning process for the reunion, and ALWAYS seems to be involved when those new business introductions are being made. Granny Smith also seems to be aware of any petty disputes and in-fighting that may be happening, and she is not above grabbing anyone by the ear and making them sort out their differences.

Granny Smith is recognized by all who attend as being "The" Matron of the whole gaggle. She is their zantaI.

So the one has encountered Nanny Ogg?

SoplaHtaHwI', have you had success in resolving the question of joining another House without leaving House qI'meQ? I am curious to hear how the differing Heads of House responded to your proposition, and what solution if any has been reached.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

SoplaHtaHwI', have you had success in resolving the question of joining another House without leaving House qI'meQ? I am curious to hear how the differing Heads of House responded to your proposition, and what solution if any has been reached.

Well, the qI'meQ House consists of me and about 6 fictional characters. I am not the head of my house.
My House makes blood wine vessels, the other House is well-known for their blood wine.
Because of an escalated dispute with a rival house and the death murder of my uncle, I have sought and found help in this House and both epetais have made a pact both in business and defense.

I still need to think about how to honourably cause me to become a member of the other House, preferably without simply killing off the other members of my House...

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Latest news on my House and its position in the Empire:

At the last Qetlop (QI'lop) in september, the two houses entered into an alliance which strengthens both houses.
Although, technically, the wrong ceremony was used, Both I and the head of the other House have agreed it is an alliance, and that my House is still its own.

I am still thinking about what to do with the name... I could let myself be registered as

{qa'pIn bu' nIv qorghon puqloD qI'meQ vIghro''a' tuq} =
First Sergeant qa'pIn, son of qorghon of the House of qI'meQ vIghro''a', but that would mean the Fleet Commander needs to say it every time I get promoted...

Ok, that's not too often anymore, since my Officer's test will possibly soon arrive, and I am being pushed to start my own ship now, since I've announced it...