-laH / -be'

[Jon]

I was just reading the bit in the TKD appendix about -ghach. There we have lo' (to use) and lo'laH (be valuable) and finally lo'laHbe' (be worthless).

The Klingon academy (http://klingonska.org/dict/suffix.html) has an example with the similar verb lI' (be useful) and lI'be' (be useless).

It''s almost as if -laH is taking a verb and adding -ful, and then adding -be' changes -ful to -less. So lo'laH is can be used or be useful, i.e. be valuable.

For example, from tlho' (to thank) gives tlho'laH (be thankful) , and perhaps tlho'laHbe' (be thankless)?

Ah, and then I came across yep (be careful) and yepHa' (be careless), as if I wasn't confused enough...


[Edit - merged double posting]

[ter'eS]

I don't really know how to answer you.  My first reaction is to say that transitive verbs (verbs that can normally take objects) never function adjectivally, but then there is the canon lo'laH and lo'laHbe'.  I think that Okrand used the word useless on one of the tapes, and the phrase was yIHmey lo'laHbe'bogh 'useless tribbles', but I can't remember exactly.  If he did, then lo'laHbe' isn't an adjective, but still a verb phrase. But maybe lo'laH and lo'laHbe' are special cases, or actually separate words that only resemble lo'.

I don't understand -laH to mean '-ful'; it means 'able to'. So I read tlho'laH as 'he can thank (someone)', and tlho'laHbe' as 'he can't thank (someone)'.

As for how -Ha' and -be' compare, in general, I would say -Ha' creates the polar opposite of the quality word it is suffixed to, and is semi-lexical, that is, probably only attaches to certain words, and we as non-native speakers tend to mis-use it.  On the other hand -be' just negates the verb (quality or action), and can be freely used any time.  However, there are examples that contradict both ideas.  It just isn't that well spelled out for us, and we have too small a sample to make hard and fast rules.

Off the topic a bit, one of the things I've seen over the years is people coming to these forums or the KLI mailing list having just discovered Klingon and very excited about it, but then they get sidetracked trying to come up with Klingon equivalents for English expressions, some of which are very nuanced and idiomatic and which don't really come up in the normal use of Klingon anyway.  Then they get frustrated or bored, and eventually drift away. If you are serious about Klingon, start sending us some messages in it!  If you want my critique, just ask for it (I make it a policy never to critique anyone's Klingon unless they ask me to). mIwvam Dalo'chugh, chaq nom tlhIngan Hol laHlIj DaDubchoH 'ej tlhIngan Hol DatIvchoHchu'!

[Qunchuy]

The phrase on the Power Klingon audiotape is wa'maH yIHmey lI'be' ten useless tribbles.

Years ago, in the now-defunct MSN startrek.klingon newsgroup, Marc Okrand had this to say about lo'laH:

On the other hand, you're right about lo'laH "be valuable."
It is a simple verb in its own right (though it's an
unusual two-syllable one), not the verb lo' "use" plus Type
5 suffix -laH "can."  It is likely that there is some sort
of historical connection to the verb + suffix form, but, if
so, it is just that -- historical.