Klingons, bushido, and the atomic bomb

[elninjo]

To grow is to reach maturity. There are many variables involved in the survival of a species, breeding is just one. Agreed it does make it difficult for a warrior race to maintain numbers
War/battle is a problem solving technique in a never-ending process of restructuring/change.
Klingons have been likened to the Japanese. A warrior race to their roots.
I’m getting a little off topic here but I need to point out that a warrior race in my opinion is unsustainable. They must change or perish. There is always someone with a bigger stick than you.
The Japanese were taught to honour bushido, the warrior way. This was a culture that was bred to fight down to the last man woman and child. To own the world.
The only way to stop them was what was done, lob a dirty great "endgame" bomb on them and ask for surrender, they didn’t in the first instance and so Nagasaki went next, realizing that Japan could suffer the same fate from one end to the other and everything in between, they were "broken".
That is the basis of the endgame, surrender or die.
Klingons have this same mindset.
Is why I love the atom bomb, possessing one gives you that "endgame" option, if both sides posses one then as we saw with the cold war and even India and Pakistan, neither want to go to war, the endgame is just too horrible, the path of aggression is now totally unthinkable so negotiation becomes the tool best suited to resolving any disputes. All advanced species must come to this final conclusion if they are to preserve their species.

Cheers

[Klythe]

    This assumes of course that your opponent hasn't progressed to the point that they are unable or unwilling to use their superweapons.   The Genesis torpedo is probably the closest equivallent of the atomic bomb in the Star trek universe.   But the Federation claims it was meant as a quick terraform in a bottle, or a bottle rocket as the case may be.

    So far there is nothing that the Klingons have no defense against.   Even when we negociate, we negociate as warriors.

    Yeah...  I was part of a Star Trek/Star Wars Crossover, and we really had to struggle to find a way for the Klingons not to be completely experminated when the Galatic Empire came in wiith Death Stars and started blowing up planets.  Yeas, Klingons still have that mindset, and it very well may take the cunning of a madman and the sacrifice of a generation of warriors to keep them alive should they be faces with an intractable enemy.

[elninjo]

The United Federation of Planets is a quadrant spanning interstellar power
The Federation stresses, at least nominally, the values of universal liberty, equality, peace, and cooperation. It consists of more than 150 member planets and thousands of colonies.
Are you saying that Klingons would always be a war like race, considering the magnitude of the Federation? Are you writing their future? My questions are not meant to be offensive, I am genuinely interested.

If as you say Klingons were faced with an intractable enemy and this cunning of a madman did pull them through with great sacrifice, then surely lessons learnt would influence their decision making in the future. Are you suggesting that Klingons would have such tunneled vision that they would not see that the path of war is futile and with great cost on many levels.
Sustaining a war like race goes far beyond the issue of physical loss of warriors.

Trade is an excellent tool for peace. You have something I want and I have something you want. We don’t have to do battle to get it.

Does one have to do battle to be a warrior??

Cheers

[qoSagh]

Claiming that the path of war is futile is about as ridiculous as claiming the Earth to be Banana shaped. Klingons are warriors, that is a fact. It is our natural state of being. Klingons are not without adaptation, but this is done to enhance war not to negate it.

Was not Kahless perhaps our greatest madman? His ideas were revolutionary. He unified the fighting tribes into one big fighting empire, even before he himself could fully understand the full scope of the Empire that would one day revere him. By following that path the Empire formed out of adaptation, to enhance our fighting ability, well before we even knew what there was to fight. This is what allowed us to repel the Karsid/Hurq/Old Kings. This is what allowed us to freeze the Federation's feeble attempts at expansion.

I agree that trade is an excellent tool for peace, but a useless tool if your goal is not peace. Conquest is an excellent too for victory, one that has served us well for centuries. If the enemy has something and I want it, then I will conquer them and take it as my own. We do have to do battle to get it, for without battle the prize is worthless. Every encounter is a battle and no matter how small must have a winner and a loser. Klingons do not plan on being the looser.

[elninjo]

So if Klingons do not plan on being the losers then there would be times when it is not feasible to do battle, when their enemies are far superior in might, that they make the conscious choice not to advance. Yes or no? I’m not sure. There is very little detail (that I can find at least) on the Klingon culture.
Its very interesting though, that the Klingons killed their gods. This aspect of the Klingons I see as far more advanced than the humans of that time.
One of Gene Robenberry’s dreams for Startrek was to challenge controversial issues such as sexism. Racism and religion etc
Whilst we never really saw any humans worship a god as such, we did see that the Enterprise had a chapel
Despite this I still come back to the fact that the law of averages would show that it’s only a matter of time before a warlike species would be wiped out.
How does a war like species sustain itself?

Cheers

[Qunchuy]

How does a war like species sustain itself?

That's the wrong question.
mataHmeH maSachnIS To survive, we must expand.
komerex tel khesterex Grow or die.

A warlike species does not, and cannot, "sustain" itself. It must constantly enrich itself, through combat and conquest.

qa' wIje'meH maSuv. We fight to enrich the spirit.

(The argument can be made, however, that such combat need not be external. As Worf espoused in "Heart of Glory", the true battle can be within oneself, as one strives to become better--though the definition of "better" must be chosen well.)

[Klythe]

     There is a particular arrogant bias that comes from intelligent species that are the only intelligent species to have evolved on their homeworld.   They think themselves the end product of evolution, as if evolution was a path that has many dead ends and one true path which is the path to themselves.    This is simply not what evolution is.   Evolution is finding an ecological niche and adapting to survive in that niche.

     Birds are very very good birds, but they suck as alligators.   Lions may be king of the jungle, but they would die in hours in the arctic or days in the tundra.   Vulcans are Masters of Logic, but they have lost their warrior's heart.   Terrans are great leaders and diplomats, but they are not Klingons.

    Klingons have evolved and continue to evolve in the galactic predator niche.  They make other races around them stronger because without the threat the empire presents, the Federation, Romulans, Cardassians, all would be weaker.   The predator role is still esential to the galactic ecosystem.  Without the Klingons early actions against the Cardassians and Dominion, the Federation would not have been prepared when the Domion went on the offensive.

    The Klingons evolved into what they are because the environment that they came form was not a peaceful one.   First Contact with the Vulcans, as two non hostilve warp capable races is a luxury the Klingons did not have.  The First First Contact the Klingons had was with the Hur'q, A hostile invasion force with warp techonology against...  Leather and Batleths...   The Klingons obviously could not defeat the Hur'q out of hand, but the warrior's heart does not die so easily.    Somehow they survived and over threw the Hur'q.  And now the Hur'q are no more, and the Klingons remain.   If the Klingons can overcome the Hur'q with swords and animal hides, I don't see how they would fear the Federation, or even the Borg,for nether have the spirit or indominable will of a warrior's heart.

     Terran predators face only one intractable prey species, and that is hyoomins.   Why don't they 'evolve' to be more like hyoomins?  Because they are not hyoomins and never will be.   Nor should they ever be.  Even the Vulcans appreciate the Klingons and the unique role they fill.   For how can you have "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations" if all species 'evolve' to a single end point?

[elninjo]

Klythe, I am (perhaps wrongly) assuming that when you say "arrogant bias" you are referring to me, considering the extent you have gone to, to explain the concept of evolution. Something that didn’t need explaining.
I may well be arrogant (tie me to a post and whip me! In my world I need to be arrogant) but bias is something that I am not. When discussing issues as this I personally try to keep an "open" mind.
The law of averages is not limited to our world, it also applies to Klingons. We are discussing Klingons.
I certainly do not hold the opinions you describe and am interested to know why you think I do.
I am not here to criticize or persuade anyone into my way of thinking, I am here to learn more about the Klingons from the “experts”.

Ask a foolish question and appear like a fool for a moment. Dont ask and you will remain one.

I agree whole-heartedly that without the spirit of the Klingon, species around them would be weaker, but that doesn’t keep the Klingons alive.
Having said that, I had this very debate with a friend of mine the other night, who is one of my clansmen and a brilliant tactician. We covered such things as tactics and keeping the enemy weaker, terrain (and lack there of) the differences of warfare in space as opposed to warfare on a planet etc etc.
I am now of the mind that it may well be “possible” for them to sustain themselves.(note, I say “may”)
I have not, however given up on the "Homosexuality" thread yet. I do need to learn a little more about the culture before I go on with it though.

Cheers

[qoSagh]

One of the oldest Klingon proverbs I know is "Only a fool fights in a burning house" so yes there are times when the correct path is not to fight, but that is not to be confused with the path to victory. I am also reminded of the Human General George Patton  who once said "No battle is won by dying for your country, it is won by making the other poor son of a [explative] die for his".

As for there being little detail on Klingon Culture, most of these forums seem to be dedicated to exploring that detail, and as a whole there is much more information on Klingon culture than on any other Trek related race.

[Qunchuy]

One of the oldest Klingon proverbs I know is "Only a fool fights in a burning house"...As for there being little detail on Klingon Culture, most of these forums seem to be dedicated to exploring that detail, and as a whole there is much more information on Klingon culture than on any other Trek related race.

Besides the background information one finds in novels, there are two entire books published (by Pocket Books, Viacom's print subsidiary) which give detail on Klingon culture. Klingon for the Galactic Traveler addresses many topics (weapons, food, the arts, etc.), and The Klingon Way is full of proverbs and associated commentary. One proverb seems especially applicable here:

noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'
Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat.

(edited for clarity and correction)

[Kesvirit]

There are far more than these two “entire” (??) books with valuable details on Klingon culture. Both KGT (Klingon for the Galactic Traveller, of which I believe Klingon for the Galactic Empire is a mistype) and TKW (The Klingon Way) emphasize thlIngan Hol, and are one man’s unresearched take on Klingon culture.

I advise that you peruse the Classics of Klingon Literature section for sources with details on Klingon culture, in particular the books mentioned in the Resources for Klingon Culture thread.

-=- Kesvirit

[elninjo]

Thank you everyone for all that info. I am still working my way through the massive amount of info on these forums but I do tend to get a little "sidetracked" along the way. As well as being arrogant I am also opinionated 

Cheers

[Qunchuy]

There are far more than these two “entire” (??) books with valuable details on Klingon culture.

Those two books are the only Viacom-authorized ones I am aware of which focus on Klingon culture. There are any number of Trek novels which deal with the culture, but they are storybooks, not reference works.

Both KGT (Klingon for the Galactic Traveller, of which I believe Klingon for the Galactic Empire is a mistype)

Indeed it was, and I have corrected my original post.

and TKW (The Klingon Way) emphasize thlIngan Hol, and are one man’s unresearched take on Klingon culture.

I'd hardly call them unresearched. Every proverb in The Klingon Way is found in filmed Star Trek, and is presented in the appropriate context. Similarly, the cultural details presented in Klingon for the Galactic Traveler are taken from the on-screen Trek canon (as it existed when the book was prepared).

[qoSagh]

Story books are often better sources than reference books because in telling the story, the author puts the culture in perspective as it is lived by the characters and as it interacts with other cultures.

"Canon (as it existed when the book was prepared)" is exactly the problem with Paracanon, it changes more than the Red Chinese did with their revisionist history and declarations of various individuals becoming unpersons.

[netlhQIn]

Except more often than not storybooks (and stories) only give a point of view of the characters in them.  Whereas a "canon"-describing book will give the majority point of view.

I'd similarly argue that it would give a more accurate description of Christianity if you research the history of Christianity rather than one person's individual experiences with Christianity.

[Klythe]

    And in this case the "majority" point of view is that of the "Federation Scientific Research Council" (TKW pg vi), based on sayings 'attributed to' Klingons and off of any random thing spoken by the pariah and traitor Worf.   The other book is "prepared by a staff of Federation researchers and written with a bias towards Federation Standard" ( KGT pg 4).   I personally prefer any work from the Klingon's own point of view, rather than the Federation majority point of view.   

    One Christian's first paw... err first hand report of how Christianity _can_ be, when put in that perspective, is every bit as valuable if not more than Christian history written by those living outside direct Christian influence, say Buddhist Monks.

    I didn't realise when I posted Is the Klingon reputation for ravishing worlds accurate? how much crossover it had with this thread.   It's long overdue for me to update that thread with some facts about patterns of Terran societies that were not sustainable and failed, and those that were sustainable and survived.