Non-Klingons living in the Empire

[soup_borg]

As Worf was raised in the Federation there's a good chance that other species (humans for example if you've ever read the TNG novel "Reunion" or Gowron throwing out UFP citizens at the end of DS9's 4th season) live within the Empire.  How would Klingons treat these species?  How would other aliens live in the Empire, especially if some of them don't actually want to live there and are just dragged along with their family/spouse/work?  And what if some weakling human, or maybe even a Bajoran, decides to become a warrior?

[Kehlan]

Good question and I suspect there is no easy answer.  I think it is never easy to be the foreigner, whether in real life or on the Klingon homeworld.  I think Klingons would act as though they are superior to the foreigners but depending on how the foreigner in question behaved, would probably accept them.  (after all someone has to do all the dirty yukky jobs that the Klingons don't want)

As for the "weakling" human wanting to be a warrior - well it's not going to be a problem - the human (or Bajoran etc) will either turn out to be good at it, in which case they can be respected,(and we know that characters like Curzon Dax were respected by the Empire) or they will get themselves killed - either way, problem solved.

[qoSagh]

I think that Klingons would treat all aliens as their inferiors, we have seen this much already, and I think it would be even more pronounced within the empire. The IKS Gorkon books deal with servitor races a little bit, with a symbiotic character that basically eats garbage.

As for a weakling becoming a warrior? Impossible. One who is weak will not survive even the most basic selection process for a warrior. As for an alien becoming a soldier? I think that is even less likely, as I do not think aliens would have many rights in the empire, and the right to serve in the honorable military is certainly one that would be restricted for reasons of imperial security.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

My colleagues speak wisely, and there is little that I can or would add other than this;

Klingons are superior, but not necessarily out of arrogance is this statement made. It is a matter of survival. That said, we also respect strength, courage and loyalty in our foes and allies. So I think that it would be possible for a determined non-Klingon to "Prove" themselves within Klingon circles and gain the respect of those whom they live and work closely with.

However, I do think that it would take an extraordinary level of contribution on the part of the one seeking the company and respect of Klingons to gain any sort of "Status" amongst them. And they would never be seen as being "Klingon" regardless of their reputation or connections.

maj! {Good}...

[Kehlan]

just a thought but has anyone read the novels about Picard on board the Stargazer.  There are two human twins on board, Gerda and (sorry, I can't remember the other one's name) and the two sisters were brought up by Klingons on the Klingon Homeworld.  I seem to remember they considered themselves Klingon and were part of a Klingon House.


Kehlan

[Abbot Nej vIt]

We have seen any number of non-canon examples like this... Not the least of which was Krenn himself (Protagonist from John Ford's 'The Final Reflection'), who was sort of hinted at possibly being part Orion of all things... Because of such anomalies some curious questions about just who is eligible to join a Klingon Family/House/Line do exist...

If we go by FASA, we see that some lines are open to some or all "Fusion" species of Klingon... While others are exclusive to a particular species of Klingon... But even in these situations we see some Klingon Blood involved in the equation...

In TNG and beyond we have seen only one example that I can think of where a Non-Klingon was a member of a Klingon House... And that of course was Quark in the DS9 episode "House of Quark"... Though I am not sure that anyone took it too seriously, (Especially Gowron who was Chancellor at the time)... Non-the-less there is precedent for non-Klingons in Klingon Houses... Though as we saw in "House of Quark" the likelyhood of a swift death is high...

[soup_borg]

I haven't read the Stargazer novels, but I did read "Reunion", which mentioned the twin sisters raised as Klingons.  I created my SIMM character "Saleel" with them in mind.  Like them he was immersed in Klingon culture at a young age, but he didn't care for it until his teens.  By then, like Nej vIt wrote, it's a matter of survival (I'm sure some of you remember what high school was like).  Maybe picking a fight with a stronger classmate and walking away with your life.

qoSagh wrote that military service would be restricted to non-Klingons for security reasons.  I don't doubt it.  Another reason why Saleel joined Starfleet because he knew he wouldn't be fully accepted--and (in my mind) it took both the Klingon War and the Dominion War to partly prove himself within Klingon circles.

A few months ago I read a TNG novel called "Genesis Force" that mentioned a human named Jeremy from an earlier TNG episode "The Bonding."  Jeremy's mom died when he was 12 years old on an away team led by Worf and some energy aliens decided to take her place...  Anyway, at the end of the episode he performed the R'uustai with Worf, making them brothers.

[Kesvirit]

Abbot Nej vIt: Not the least of which was Krenn himself (Protagonist from John Ford's 'The Final Reflection'), who was sort of hinted at possibly being part Orion of all things...

The one is mistaking Krenn for Kelly. During the chess game with Spock, Krenn says “My mother was not of my father’s race.” Judging from the book’s cover art (always a dicey proposition), I would guess Krenn to be a Human Fusion. Kelly was a Fusion whose makeup was known only to a few superiors... At one point Krenn is watching Kelly drink and privately admiring her grace of movement. He speculates that she may have had some Orion material in her genetic template.

-=- Kesvirit

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Abbot Nej vIt: Not the least of which was Krenn himself (Protagonist from John Ford's 'The Final Reflection'), who was sort of hinted at possibly being part Orion of all things...

The one is mistaking Krenn for Kelly. During the chess game with Spock, Krenn says “My mother was not of my father’s race.” Judging from the book’s cover art (always a dicey proposition), I would guess Krenn to be a Human Fusion. Kelly was a Fusion whose makeup was known only to a few superiors... At one point Krenn is watching Kelly drink and privately admiring her grace of movement. He speculates that she may have had some Orion material in her genetic template.

-=- Kesvirit

Sounds about right, it has been some time since I have read the text in question... Hmmm... Maybe that it is time to do so again... But I knew someone had been "Hinted" at I thought it was Krenn...

kaI Kesvirit...

[qoSagh]

Fandom is full of these various mixed heritage Klingons, mostly because of the creativity of the roleplayers. Someone gets an idea for a character, and who are any of us to say no to someone else's choice like that. Of course some of these start off fairly normal as Klingon/Human or even Klingon/Orion, then they get into genre mixing, Klingon/wookie or Klingon/Sontaran. Usually these are just excuses to make your character an invincible super hero, as they always seem to have all the powers and none of the weaknesses.

From the Klingon perspective, most if not all of these blendings would be distasteful. Some would border on unthinkable, if the other half was a known enemy race, like say the Romulans. But it remains that these characters are here and have become part of the extended corpus of semi-canon thinking. Since most Klingon fan clubs are military based, the only job available to these characters is warrior. Since they are usually very active members, the promotions come fairly regularly. This gives us characters like this in command roles.

There is a big difference between thinking like a Klingon and thinking like a Human fan of Klingons, and I think is what leads to the confusion.

[soup_borg]

Fandom is full of these various mixed heritage Klingons, mostly because of the creativity of the roleplayers.

I recently created a new SIMM character, a Klingon-Borg. 

Thanks to the Voyager episodes "Infinite Regress" and "Unimatrix Zero, Parts 1 & 2" we know that Klingons have been assimilated by the Borg.  I'm a fan of Borg and a recent fan of Klingons, so their 'blending' seemed natural for me.  Of course, my SIMM is wary of Super Hero Syndrome--specially when the Borg are involved, but I try not to over do it.   

[Kehlan]

Two intersting half Klingon females are Ba'el and K'ehleyr.  Ba'el being half Romulan of course and the episode in question made it clear she would not be acepted in the Empire.

As half human, K'ehleyr's situation was very different.  As an ambassador she was clearly in a position of some trust and responsibility which implies she was a valued member of the Empire.

The Klingons in that voyager episode also obviously had no major problems with Belanna - (the episode where they were nearly worshipping her unborn baby)

Of course, this is not the same as a non-klingon living in the empire.  And I still think that if the alien was strong and honourable enough they would be accepted up to a degree, although not by the military.  AFter all, as humans, how accepting are we of foreigners?  I would be accepted in the USA but as a British national, would I be alllowed to serve in your military?

Kehlan

[soup_borg]

The Klingons in that voyager episode also obviously had no major problems with Belanna - (the episode where they were nearly worshipping her unborn baby)

Of course, this is not the same as a non-klingon living in the empire.  And I still think that if the alien was strong and honourable enough they would be accepted up to a degree, although not by the military.  AFter all, as humans, how accepting are we of foreigners?  I would be accepted in the USA but as a British national, would I be alllowed to serve in your military?

Kehlan

"Prophesy", I believe.  But some weren't too happy to find out that B'Elanna was half-human and it took one of the Klingons to almost die before he'd accept her and the baby.

As for "my military"...well, in my military all the women would be dressed like 7o9 and the wear would wear Darth Vader-like capes.

I mean we've had the President give dead soldiers of Hispanic descent "Post Mordem" citizenship status, so you'd probably be allowed to serve.  But I'd wait a couple of years. 

[KlingonAndorianOrion]

I would be accepted in the USA but as a British national, would I be alllowed to serve in your military?

Kehlan

Non-citizens can serve in at least one branch of the US military (not sure which but I think the Army was mentioned), and military service doesn't automatically confer citizenship though I think it makes it a lot easier to obtain and easier still to stay in the US as a non-citizen.  This was from a newspaper article I read about 10 years ago, and it said something like 4% of the Army were non-citizens.

Now on the other hand this brings up something similar.  The UK's military has the Ghurkas who are soldiers recruited from Nepal.  The French and Spanish have their foreign legions.  The Isrealis have a group in the IDF where non-Isreali Jews can serve.  Would the Klingons have ships crewed mainly or entirely by conquered peoples or foreigners such as Ferengi, Cardassians, Federation citizens, etc?

Perhaps non-Klingons could earn some distinction as warriors by serving as mercenaries or the future equivalent of private security contractors similar to "Blackwater" not Paul Blart.

[qoSagh]

The main difference between the foreign legions and aliens serving in the Klingon military is the race involved. Based on what we know now, earth is still only populated by one species, Humans. So no matter how racist we may or may not be we are still dealing with humans. As I have said before, I do not think Klingons would be anywhere near as enlightened as this. Plus as new alien species are found they may or may not look like us (or the Klingons) so there may be very prominent visual clues, which will drive home the point.

Way back when, there was speculation that blacks and whites might not be the same species. This among other things is what made the slave trade morally acceptable. I remember the scene in Huckleberry Finn where Huck is surprised to find out that Jim's blood is red just like his. It simply never occurred to Huck that Jim was human. Imagine if there was a factor other than skin color, like say a prominent cranial ridge (or lack there of) which would make that belief much more widespread. Now add in the 23rd century medical technology that con confirm internal differences and an already arrogant and suspicious race like Klingons and you just don't get an equality oriented service opportunity. 

[El Payaso Malo]

Klingons have been shown to be distrustful of outsiders. However, they also shown to be distrustful of each other. It is pretty apparent to me that non-Klingons can live within the Empire as citizens, and MAY even be shown in the military, they just have to prove themselves worthy. Klingons tend to view nearly everyone else as weak, timid and/or untrustworthy cowards, but when someone (perhaps a human or Ferengi) displays honorable characteristics such as martial prowess, honesty, straightforwardness, strength, confidence and courage, the Klingons can start to see that individual as one of them to a point. It's like a secret warrior handshake, Klingons are convinced it is exclusive to them, and are shocked when someone else shows it, but they don't deny it when it is obvious. There have been numerous instances of this, going all the way back to the Klingons' debut in "Errand of Mercy" and Kirk, who Kor liked because Kirk (who he believed to be an Organian) never smiled. It has been shown that populations of annexed worlds tend to become second class citizens within the Empire, but this could be unique to each feudal house.

In Star Trek Online, the Klingon Empire has joined forces with the Orion Syndicate (with the Empire in a dominant role) and has annexed the Gorn and the Nausicans (who were helping the Gorn). The Letheans offered their allegiance to the Empire, but have not received full citizenship yet. All of these may serve on a starship, as well as joined trill.

I can also see Klingons as using conscription on conquered cultures if warrior numbers ever run low (since death in combat is seen as GOOD, they don't avoid it often). They would pick the culture most like their own or with the most potential to be.

Becoming part of a great house has been seen in canon twice with non-Klingons, once with a bonding ritual and the other with marriage. In both cases (with a little controversy), they were given rights as if they were Klingons. Klingons have taken steps forward and steps back as a people, taken large leaps in open-mindedness and fairness every few centuries (in both directions; when at one point women were not only allowed on the council, but can lead the Empire, then not a few years later, can't do any of that nor can they lead Houses), but it has become clear to me that as long as you act honorably, you are strong and have a warrior's spirit, they can and will accept you. There is a reason that Klingons will deal with humans, Vulcans and even Ferengi when necessary, but never Romulans. Romulans never show positive character traits, but Vulcans and humans can and have (they found a lot in common with Commander William Riker when he served aboard the IKS Pagh, and even grew to respect and admire him DESPITE BEING A HUMAN), but they are still warming up to the Ferengi (VERY SLOWLY), but there may someday be a time when "Ferengi" will no longer be an insult within the Empire (by March of 3245 at least).

[qoSagh]

I for one would like to know how it is "pretty apparent" that non Klingons would be given citizenship and or military rank in the empire? There are no canon sources and precious few semi-canon ones. The only sources I can think of are in fandom.

As for Kor liking Kirk, he may very well have liked him as an Organian. Still less than a Klingon but better than the rest of the Organians. Something along the lines of "some of my best friends are X".  When I was growing up there was a TV commercial about prejudice. It is very poignant from a human perspective. I would point out that the Grandfather in the boat is not a Klingon, and the point would not be the same if it was a Klingon child saying Jimmy is one of my Romulan friends.

I found the commercial here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDM3XOnxP0I&feature=related

[El Payaso Malo]

Citizenship is a given, at least as far as a feudal society takes it. As for the other stuff: of course there are no canon examples of it. If there had been, I wouldn't have spent all of that time explaining why I feel the way do, as I would have just linked a YouTube video or a Memory Alpha page and have been done with it. Of course, there wouldn't have been a topic for which to discuss this if the topic was out, open and well addressed in canon. The best I can do is what I have done: tell you how I feel and explain why. Hence, forum.

It is obvious they don't kick you out for having partial non-Klingon ancestry, and there doesn't seen to be much stigma in a Klingon marrying a human. Trill or Ferengi, yes, but interspecies marriages with humans barely raise ire (perhaps from being so common, I wouldn't be surprised if human/Klingon hybrids were the biggest minority in the Empire). Not that I'm saying that that's the way it is, just from given evidence it just seems to be the case to me.

Of course, everyone in Star Trek speaks that way about people. "Who is Nog?" "My Ferengi friend" just seems like a natural exchange in the shows. Kirk even specifically wanted a Vulcan science officer in The Motion Picture. But as for "pretty apparent," those were my opening statements, and the rest of it was to support it. I will admit that "pretty apparent" was probably stronger than I actually felt, as I'm closer between that and "maybe" or "probably."

[qoSagh]

I would say that residency is a given but citizenship is not. We have seen some limited examples of non Klingons living in the empire, we also know that citizenship has tiers. Remember the idea that Gowron could grant dispensation to allow a female council member, so there are restrictions on some citizens filling some roles. However we really have nothing to go on as far as what citizenship entails in a Klingon sense we can assume it is a matter of rights like citizenship is in most countries.

I agree that they do not throw you out of the empire based entirely on mixed heritage, if this were the case Worf could not have offered the prison kids a place to go. However it is fairly safe to assume that based on Klingon reactions to various alien races, half Klingons do not enjoy the same rights or same level of rights that full Klingons do. THere may be the aditional complication that if aliens are not full citizens, then children of aliens even with a Klingon parent are not full citizens either.

[El Payaso Malo]

I don't recall K'Ehleyr suffering any kind of social stigma, and she was almost anti-Klingon. Likewise Alexander, apart from being associated with Worf and being generally incompetent. Worf's stigma was just in being "too human" due to his association with them for so long. And Curzon? He held mighty sway and respect within the Empire, treated as almost a legendary figure surpassed perhaps only by Kahless himself (that may be an exaggeration, but my point is made). And when K'Ehleyr was offered a seat on the High Council, not only was she a hybrid and a woman, but also not a citizen of the Empire. Also, it seems to me that when she was offered that positioned by Gowron, the anti-woman law had not yet been implemented.

[Klythe]

    No social styma, other than her emissary status granting her transport in an oh-so-roomy-and-regal class 9 transport pod.  Basically they send her in an oversized photo torpedo, much as Spock's corpse was 'disposed' of at the end of the Wrath of Khan, Oh, that and DuraS's slaughtering her...  If I recall she had made requests for resources to encounter the sleeper ship, the T'ong, but was consistently denied.   Gowron has always been a consumate politician, his political games aside, I suspect the rule has always been there, but Gowron had enogh political power at that time he could see to it that it was overlooked...

    It would be good if we knew more about Curzon, he is the best case to make for an entirely non-Klingon gaining acceptance as a warrior among Klingons.  Hewas certainly popular with Kang, Kor and Koloth, but do we really know his reputation acrossed the Empire?

[El Payaso Malo]

The class 9 transport pod featured accommodations fit for a Klingon (i.e. none). Giving her only the essential space she required was what they would have given any Klingon. Giving her padding such as a pillow would have been considered an insult by Klingons, much the way Kurn did when he first met Worf.

As for Curzon, his biggest fans were Kor, Kang and Koloth; who were themselves near legendary figures. That's similar to Jimi Hendrix's favorite guitarist being Billy Gibbins. If Hendrix is your biggest fan, that's saying something. I recall him being well known and well respected, but I can't think of any specifics on that one right now, so maybe I'm just remembering what I want to remember. But if you are a hero to the heroes of a culture, assuming that most of the culture as a whole likewise respects you isn't an unsafe assumption.

[Klythe]

    I'm not quibbling over the need for further amenities in a class 9 transport pod... but that she wasn't ferried by a Neghvar Battleship, as Gowron would be,, or a Battlecruiser, even the Sisters of DuraS had a Bird of Prey and crew at their command.   Having access to a Klingon Starship, would have been quite handy when dealing with the T'ong sleeper crew.  However, KEhleyr didn't even have an old shuttle, she was stuffed in a tube and _fired_ at the Enterprise.    I can't help but believe that she perhaps didn't have as much clout and pull as other Klingons of the same rank.

[El Payaso Malo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her mission meant to be covert? If my memory serves me well, that means that a battle cruiser would not have been the subtle transportation that she required for her mission.