Non-violent Klingons?

[J'Maq]

Pacifism:  the opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes.  Hardly a Klingon manifesto, right? And yet,  could such a philosophy take hold in Klingon society?  That is to say, could Klingons learn to embrace the tenets of pacifism? And if so, what would be the ramifications?  Perhaps the birth of a whole new subculture?

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Though I find the very thought of such a question, let alone idea, distasteful, I will non-the-less respond with my opinions...

- If we look at another aggressive warrior culture that attempted this we see that it is possible, but that there are mixed results. This other species of course is the Vulcan's. The price they pay for going against their genetic predisposition for war is clear. They are slaves to a moral code they claim is based on logic, yet they can not ultimately "Control" their primal natures completely, and the results are devastating. They are to be pitied.

We too have developed a moral code to guide us a species, it is the code of honor. It is a personal code that may mean different things to different people, but is a code none-the-less. I feel that by incorporating that ethos into our lives, we do not seek to control our basic biological nature, nor change ourselves into something other than what we were meant to be. Rather, we seek to define ourselves as a people and claim our natural place in the hierarchy of life.

We posses all of the hallmarks of civilization, honor, tradition, the opportunity to serve a purpose greater than ourselves and a way of life which embraces the natural order of the universe... Why would we wish to subvert such a clear way of interacting with each other and others by pretending to be something that we are not...?

maj! {Good}...

[qoSagh]

From the capita Proverbs comes a relevant quote.

"The True Warrior is always at war, the true pacifist is never at peace."

To the Klingon this is self evident, as we have a phrase komerex zha, which describes the great game we call life. The is a game of warriors, as was is the natural state of being to a Klingon. To be a warrior is to live, to grow, to experience all there is. To forsake this most natural existence is to fight against oneself, thus one can never be at peace if the one is always opposing his very nature.

Every interaction no matter how minor must have a winner and a looser, this lesson is taught to Klingons from a very young age. This is true not only in battle but also in commerce, in education and even in family life. Klingons have embraced the warrior nature and because of this have developed a rich history and culture, where our enemies would claim nothing could ever flourish.

Thus I would say that no, a non violent Klingon would not exist very long if ever at all. The mistake our enemies make most often is not underestimating our violence, but misunderstanding our violence. Violence is always the response to an act, never the act itself. War like everything else we have claimed is a tool to be exploited, and thus when a Klingon is violent towards an opponent, it is not violence for it's own sake. Klingons have embraced their warrior spirit, and have refined the art of war supremely, it is not enough to know our enemies, we must understand them as well.

Klingons are warriors, not fighters. We conceive of war, we wage war, we win war because we understand that this is the natural order of things. A theoretical Klingon who does none of these places himself at a great disadvantage, as do the enemies or this our most glorious empire.

[Durek]

Pacifism:  the opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes.  Hardly a Klingon manifesto, right? And yet,  could such a philosophy take hold in Klingon society?  That is to say, could Klingons learn to embrace the tenets of pacifism? And if so, what would be the ramifications?  Perhaps the birth of a whole new subculture?

A non-violent Klingon is a contradiction in terms.

[Klythe]

     I disagree.    There is many ways to fight which may not necessarily involve the direct use of violence.   Mere physical violence is only as effective up to arm's length.   This is not the same as pacifism, which is a path that seeks to avoid conflict.   I would suggest even for hyoomins that without some form of conflict nothing lasting and meaningful can be accomplished.  Can you really be said to be a living individual, if you never separate  yourself from and thus conflict with your environment?

[netlhQIn]

Durek, what you're describing isn't pacifism.  Pacifism doesn't seek to avoid conflict, but instead seeks to resolve conflict in a non-violent way. 

Technically, a Klingon could strive to do so, but it would mean turning your back on the way your ancestors have evolved since before recorded time.  It's more than just tradition, it's an ingrained facet of what a Klingon is.  Trying to be a pacifist Klingon would be like a human refusing to learn how to comprehend any human language.  Why would it do such a thing?  And often, like in this example, one would learn it before one would be capable of making the decision not to.  So in a very real way, no Klingon would be capable of being a pacifist unless they were raised from birth outside of Klingon culture.  In this situation, you'd be as unlikely to be able to maintain a pacifistic demeanor as anyone else in the society you were raised in, perhaps moreso if one wants to suggest that the Klingon nature is more beastial than others, though I would not necessarily go so far as to suggest this.

[Hamlet]

I think that leads us to the whole "Klingon nature" topic. Is there a Klingon, a Human or a Vulcan nature ?. Or, in a more restricted way of asking: How much of this "Klingon nature" is inherited, biologic, and how much is only a cultural thing. For this culture has not always been and may not keep being the same over the evolution of Klingon species and society.

[Klythe]

     

I think that leads us to the whole "Klingon nature" topic. Is there a Klingon, a Human or a Vulcan nature ?. Or, in a more restricted way of asking: How much of this "Klingon nature" is inherited, biologic, and how much is only a cultural thing. For this culture has not always been and may not keep being the same over the evolution of Klingon species and society.

    All very good questions. 

   Let's start with taking this from the biological.  Aggression is clearly a primal force, but is violence?  All animals(even intelligent civilized ones, like Klingons and Terrans) subsist on killing other life and consuming them.  Eating (most) plants is widely considered non-violent and requires very little aggression due to the fact that resistance and perceived pain of most plants is little to non-existant.  A scavenger's meal is already killed,  so there is little need for violence(though could be handy if you are competing over a carcass).  Insectivores' prey are slightly more capable of avoiding being eaten and potentially feel more pain, but still few consider this violent.  The prey of carnivores are often capable of feeling pain is much more desirous and capable of resisting being eaten, thus animals that rely on meat for some or all of their diet usually have bring more aggression to bear in order to subsist. 

    The question I ask you is, is this violence, killing another animal for your meal?  The reason I have to ask is that unlike aggression, which I think is readily definable in a culturally neutral way, I thing the question of what violence is and what it means varies from culture to culture.  Social animals clearly understand aggression and react to it in various ways, but the concept of violence is most likely meaningless to them.  For now, I'll assume the idea of violence is the same for Klingons as it is in "Western" Terran Culture (Further assuming it's the same for all the cultures of the "Western" world).

   So far what we have been treated to of Klingon culture is that the capacity to wield violence well has always been at least accepted and often revered. I would say this tends to be something that would be largely common to most primative and tribal cultures as someone capable of using violence effectively is able to bring back much more food for the tribe than one who isn't.  So in this respect it is cultural, but common to most if not all cultures.

   The vast majority of individuals in Western culture wouldn't know how to kill an animal, prepare and eat it if their lives depeneded on it. They have the luxury of being isolated from the source of their food which is so heavily processed it is visually unrecognisable.  Next time you are eating, take a good look at your food.  If you only knew organism from who they looked when they were alive, how much of your food would you be able to visually identify what it was when it was alive?  Unless you are a vegetarian, you will most likely find much of your food does not look at all like it did in life.

    Klingon culture avoids this as their food is seldom processed in a ways that hides it's identity. Even when they did not kill it themselves, they know it was killed.  They don't hide from violence as Terrans have since they industrialized.  So even if it is "just" cultural, it is a central part of their culture that is not going to change without the destruction of their culture and only if another culture was imposed on them... most likely,  violently.
   
    So I think there is more to it than Kirk claims, that it starts with a simple decision, "No.  I will not kill today."  Because every meal places evidence that is hard to ignore, evidence that someone somewhere needs to be violent for you to continue to sustain yourself, and therefore the Violence of each Klingon sustains the empire as a whole.
   
    I earlier objected to the idea than an individual Klingon could not be non-violent.  I still maintain an individual for various reasons could afford the luxury of delegating violence to other Klingons, the empire is a big place and individuals are very diverse.  But any Klingon would know Violence in some form is necessary for the Klingon Empire.  And if the one did not personally contribute violence directly then they would need something else the other Klingons would find indispensible.

[Hod Qhi]

Peaceful Klingons likely don't develop a sub-culture I don't see themselves as seeing themselves wanting to dpread their view. The likely live quite lives in doing peaceful things. The are Merchents and Teachers. not glory hounds but ignored rather than percuted. Likely pityed in the rare case that people take any not of them.

[Klythe]

Peaceful Klingons likely don't develop a sub-culture I don't see themselves as seeing themselves wanting to dpread their view. The likely live quite lives in doing peaceful things. The are Merchents and Teachers. not glory hounds but ignored rather than percuted. Likely pityed in the rare case that people take any not of them. 

     Oh, I have little doubt that any thinking person of any species will at some point want to spread their view, if nothing else to justify the validity of their abberant way of life.  A pacifist can be every bit as much a gloryhound as a warrior.  After all what bigger boast can thier be of winning a war without even needing to draw up arms. 

    I agree with one point, there would be no honor in percecuting pascifists.  No honor in killing a man who will not fight back.   There is no glory or honor in swatting a ghob fly, but if they annoy you too much, there is no shame in it either.

Durek, what you're describing isn't pacifism.  Pacifism doesn't seek to avoid conflict, but instead seeks to resolve conflict in a non-violent way. 

    That was not Durek.  That was my claim. 

I offer as supprot for my claim Merriam Webster's Definition of Pacifism.  Dictionaries should be thought of as descriptive us use, not proscriptive.  In this case the second definition while not the primary definition is important enough to be documented along side.

1: opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes ; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
2: an attitude or policy of nonresistance.

    Ultimately avoiding conflict is perhaps the best strategy to use to avoid involving violence.  Of course avoiding conflict is nearly impossible when your opponent wishes to draw you into conflict.  The only way to avoid conflict in this case is to appear ready and capable of more violence than your opponent is capable of accepting.

[Hod Qhi]

I would have to say that the Klingon Calture has such a marshal bent to it that proscriibing peace is ill regarded. Take a look at actions and advice given by the Klingon High Command after the Praxis Explosion for example. Peace was so ill regarded that it even in that catostrofic event Peace was just barely an option.

[K'Voth]

It would certainly be an odd thing if a culture (Or group) was purley pacifist (In the sense of non violent/Conflict avoidant) as nothing in the universe is in isolation, even starfleet who like to think of themselves more as explorers and scientists arm all of thier ships, even shuttles pack some kind of punch, all be it a weak one. So it would be unlikly to develop. As above mentioned hiding the true nature of a species is likley to lead to some violent outbursts/moments (The phrase "Its allways the quiet ones you watch for" Comes to mind [although i am pretty sure i just misquoted that]) and in klingon society where reproduction and courting appear to be somewhat violent in nature means that it really would go against nature and health. Life is conflict at all levels, and so I have in my own opinion thought pacifism to be a fallacy, non violence is a different matter, weapons don't always have to be swords and fists. Who knows it could be an interesting social experiment but im pretty sure in klingon culture it would not last long,

That said, what about the monks on boreth.

[Hod Qhi]

That said, what about the monks on boreth.

their have been Warrior Monks even on Terra, Ancient Japan had several Sects that included martial training even Weapons Traing. Kung FU was largely developed in China by monks for self defence. Monks on Boreth are offered a great deal of respect by many Klingons, I would guess that they are still Klingons after all they Fight but perhas not for the reasons that other klingons do.

[K'Voth]

True enough. But if they train and arm themselves then I am pretty sure that it negates large tenants of pacifism/non violence. I know that there is learning to fight so that one doesn't have to but it seems like a contradiction. I am not sure that supposed peaceful monks that are well armed and highly organised counts. It is a strange one thats for sure. Then again if the boreth monks are spiritualists and the Klingon spirit is that of a warrior then being that well trained would be a matter of course. As for earth I would agree that allot of martial arts have elements of focusing the spirit and mind into a very calm place. So again I am not sure if that counts as pacifist or not. So much as sort of armed neutrality, As there is always conditioning that if a fight is required then it can and will be done. Although arguing against myself some martial arts are designed to deflect attack and let the opponent pretty much damage themselves as a result of said attack. Defiantly a confusing one and apologies for the lack of coherence in this post.

[KHruj]

I think a huge point has been missed here. It's the Klingon Warrior that drives the Empire's economy through conquest, raids, and whatever else happens in warrior society. There are other paths a Klingon may take, however. Klingon farmers are mentioned, which makes me think that a huge portion of Klingon society is at least non-militaristic. At the very least, their jobs (and bulk of their lives) are focused on the harvest, and not warfare, combat training, battles, etc. No doubt some of the warrior culture filters down even to people of such professions, but it can't be much. It takes a lot of focus to successfuly raise enough crops to feed your own family, let alone a civilization.

The problem is... Who is going to see that side of the Klingon Empire except those who directly deal with it. Chances are non-Klingons are going to encounter warrior Klingons somewhere other than on a Klingon planet, and that will be how they classify Klingons.

Have you ever talked to some old-timers that lived during World War II? Ask them what they think of the Japanese. I bet you get a very different picture painted for you than from the kids that grew up on Pokimon.